Tough training

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Hey Nautilus & all,

I guess when are trying to get the whole world in the water, you try to keep it simple. I agree that my OW AND AOW training was a piece of cake. I liked that, 'cause it got me going in this sport. As I "slid" through the science and the physical aspects of my courses, I wanted more, I wanted to prove something. Both Rescue Diver and Dive Master were that for me. In the later two of us had to swap gear on hte bottom, with only one working reg between us. We started out training for this, by swimming down to our gear (@20 feet) and donning all of it. The "final", as my instructor called it, really made us work together and practice breathing technique. Remaining calm was the only option! I hope to do my IDC later this year, but I am not sure there will be much of a physical challenge to it.

My Dive Master instructor was always springing problems on us... sometimes task loading us to the point of being sadistic. I remember one time when I was controlling 4 diving bouys, his camera, my camera, his slates, 4 little marker bouys (for u/w navigation) two or three lights, a ten pound barbell for the students to find and retrieve... what a load!!! He sort of dumped it on me, turned around and went down. I thought for a second and just followed. The 4 lines to the surface were the worst part, they were always tangling. But, I don't task load so easily now. I learned to take my time and do things s-l-o-w-l-y. It was a good lesson.


Happy diving, enjoy your condfidence, but don't rely on it.
 
There are good reasons for those skills. They develop confidence and the ability to handle problems. For instance, people I know have jumped in, had their mask come off, their tank loosen and begin to slip, and came sputtering back to the surface and boat. Had they been trained with these skills, they might have been able to take care of it underwater.

Look at all the people who freak out when their mask is flooded or comes off. If that or anything else happens, they might panic. Panicking can kill them. That's why these skills are still taught by some instructors and required by some agencies. They better prepare divers. I have no hesitation in taking off my BC and adjusting my tank, and have done so in the past (some years ago) and have removed my mask and regulator (posing for a picture). That comes from confidence in one's ability and having practised the skills that helped developed that confidence.

A lot of lake and quarry dives have a 3 meter or more jump to enter them, so it's not unreasonable to train and prepare for such an entry. There are spring and sinkholes in Florida that do also.

YMCA training is indeed more comprehensive than any other U.S. agency. That might be why they are the only U.S. agency that has CMAS equivalency.
 
:) Different strokes for different folks. In my opinion most people dont need that level of training, including myself. Greater preparing the diver for what exactly, just from panicking? Many other factors influence panicking and more effective training can be had to prevent panicking rather than "becoming intimate with your equipment". At the end of the day it depends on how much training people need at an individual level. Indeed many people may not be confident in the water even if you trained them every weekend for a year. But to suggest that one agency is superiour is silly. If training the unconfident diver then obviously these rigerous courses would be a good thing (depending on cost etc).




 
Just as a matter of interest, how does a diver get out of a lake/quarry/spring that they've had to jump 3m to get into?
 
Haggis well i would imagine you would use a ladder.

I dont know of any such places in Britain that have anywhere near a 3 metre drop. The vast majority of divers will never jump from such heights.
 
Hey all,

Having lived in Forida most of my life, I have yet to see a spring, lake or limestone quarry where this would be needed. Thats a lot of em too... Its not that I am sayint they just don't exist, heck the Devil's Den is really underground (so I have heard, its on my list of "nexts"), but is would seem to me that if I have to climb out 3 metres with a full set of equipment, then I am most apt to pass on that experience. A metre, yes, like at Blue Springs, but not three... no way. Why would we want to burden someone with an impractical skill? Just like we do not require an understanding of Nitrox to the beginner, we allow them to add to their skills, AS they need to.


Pete from Orlando...
 
Hmmm maybe they will have people diving out of aeoroplanes with full gear "just in case" you ever decide to persue such an activity : /

It sounds to me like CMAS are trying to appeal to the macho "wannabe navy seals" who dont want to actually join the navy and deal with the possibility of warfare etc. I think that there is more to this than meets the eye. Yes you would probably be a better prepared diver if you took such a rigerous course but in my opinion it is a simple marketing ploy to appeal to the young men with the above fatuation.

Dont get me wrong though, i could suggest many points to improve (in my opinion) the PADI courses i took. Nothing and nobody is perfect. But i do feel that there is more than enough room for improvement within the PADI way of teaching.
 
...........and I've had to bite my tongue several times to keep from jumping in.

As many of you know, I am a proponent of the concept of a comprehensive approach to training regardless of agency. Those who like agencies that don't have such an approach often think I'm bashing their favorite agency.

There are good reasons for skills like doff & don and bailout. Bailout, BTW, is much easier than doff & don. These skills increase a diver's confidence and they also teach a diver to solve problems underwater. We never know what problems we might encounter and the ability to remove one's gear allows you to fix a slipping tank or cut away lines you can't reach while wearing your gear. Ideally, your buddy will fix such problems for you, but sometimes buddies are inattentive or we get separated. We should look for our buddy for 1 minute, then surface when separated, but that won't help if you are entangled and unable to surface.

A diver who knows they can solve their own problems is less likely to panic when something goes wrong. Someone mentioned training divers not to panic. A very good idea. It is not part of NAUI's standards. It is not part of PADI's standards. Of the 3 agencies I have copies of standards YMCA is the only one that requires this to be taught in the OW class. How many instructors even know how to teach it? What techniques would you use to teach a diver not to panic? One of those techniques is learning to deal with all of your equipment underwater. What are others? Let's see how many can come up with the most important item.

Now, about bailout from a 3 meter trampoline........first, I hope he means a solid platform and not a trampoline. Putting any diver on a trampoline with full equipment (either in hand or wearing) is dangerous. I can see where requiring a student to walk across one wearing gear would teach them to hold on when on a rocking boat, but even so, I would not recommend such an approach. Now, if it is a platform and not a trampoline, the skill is much safer and not much more difficult than from the pool deck. OTOH, are we teaching gear familiarization or combating a fear of heights? What is the point of a 3 meter drop? If I have a 3 meter drop, I'll either climb down the ladder or drop my BC fully inflated and make a giant stride near it them slip it on. Adding in the 3 meter drop increases the chance of injury without adding any skills/abilities relating even remotely to SCUBA.

While I'm sure people are put through such training programs, I find it hard to believe CMAS actually requires that 3 meter drop.

WWW™

 
Hey Walter & All,

Kudos to Walter for focusing on what is important here... I agree to R&R (Remove & Replace) underwater AND on the surface is a skill everyone in the sport needs to have down cold. If for no other reason then when a tangle occurs, or a buckle inadvertently lets some of your equip fall off of you. That type of "gear intimacy" makes sense, and is something 95% of the divers here could probably support.

As to "panic training", I think that would be a great thing to add. I know how I handle panic... I use the SPAR method. Stop, Pause, Assess, Re-assess. Still that is a method I came up with to help my 12 year old son and 16 year old daughter deal with the aqueous environment. I would love to hear more about how Walter teaches/handles panic situations.

Pete from Orlando...
 
Some examples of things to do that do make sense and help gain intimacy with one's gear - and why:
(1) Doff & Don underwater - never know when you'll need to take care of that lose tank or entangled tank valve by yourself.
(2) No mask swim - a mask can be lost anytime
(3) Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent - you may actually have to do one
(4) Doff & Don on the surface - Every time you dive from a really small boat, or a canoe, or where there really is a 3 meter drop to the water (lower your gear, hop in and put it on.. after the dive, take your gear off & clip it off to the hoist, climb out yourself and then hoist your gear up)
(5) Weight ditching; buoyant ascents
(6) All the "regular stuff" - air sharing, mask clearing, regulator retrieval and clearing etc..
(7) Stress management
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Some examples of things that have no practical application in recreational diving:
(1)Jumping in with gear from 3 meters (this one doesn't even have any practical application for technical divers.. only the military.)
(2)Breathing off a tank without a regulator at all
(3)Swimming underwater for some distance to your gear and putting it on.
(4)The old bailout drill (see item 4 above)
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One example of a skill we used to teach that most agencies don't anymore but should:
(1)Turning your air on under water - sooner or later you'll jump in with it off or just barely on. (Usually due to a "helpful" buddy or crewmember getting momentarily confused as to which way's right and which way's left)
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Rick
 

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