Torn Between Two Computers
- Thread starter Patrick Star
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GF99/99
Contributor
Blackcrusader has a good point. Service is another factor you should take into account when buying a computer if you plane to keep it for a while. Especially when it comes to electronics. I have several friends that have not had the best of luck with Sunnto customer service with both dive computers and regular workout watches. However if you search this site you will see Shearwater has quite the reputation for standing behind there product and providing amazing customer service.
I can confirm this with a recent experience with a 4 year old Perdix that stopped working. I sent it in and with in 3days they had already sent it back fixed. No questions asked no charge not even for return postage.
CaptainChris
Contributor
Suunto EON Steel has fantastic display and easy to use. It takes time if you are really interested in understanding just how the Suunto Fused RGBM works. Yes, it does lock up if you miss a deco stop for more than 3 mins, but as a previous commentator has stated, you have more things to worry about, and if you miss a stop by more than 3 mins should you be doing deco dives in the first place?
Also Suunto have just released a new software update for the Eon Steel that has the Buhlmann 16 GF algorithm, which does not lock out. So in effect you have a choice in settings to decide which algorithm you want to use.
However, with any computer it is vitally important to understand what the computer is doing and why. Safety first always.
Also Suunto have just released a new software update for the Eon Steel that has the Buhlmann 16 GF algorithm, which does not lock out. So in effect you have a choice in settings to decide which algorithm you want to use.
However, with any computer it is vitally important to understand what the computer is doing and why. Safety first always.
Blackcrusader
Contributor
Only if you pay 80 Euro for the upgrade and you cannot upgrade it yourself. A big non plus for me.
How to get the Bühlmann algorithm to your EON Steel?
BrackaFish
Contributor
We are a Shearwater using family and are pretty happy with that choice. So I guess that means we have drank the Shearwater Koolaid and done the “Buy once, Cry once” line of thinking. As others have mentioned, besides brand the other choice will be AI or not. Regardless of your choice, you will find a computer will make a huge difference in your diving, especially at dive resorts when you are doing multi daily dives. Be safe
Go with Shearwater. I’m an unashamed fan. Made the move over to Shearwater a decade ago and I’ve NEVER regretted it. I’ve bought four shearwaters, have sold two at a significant residual value and still own two ... a Perdix AI & a Peregrine.
OP
Patrick Star
Contributor
Thank you all for your replies. They have gotten my wheels turning. Here are some follow up thoughts:
1 The Perdix sounds ideal, but in all honesty, I would feel silly having this be my first computer. It has all the hallmarks of being my next and probably last computer. Getting a good exposure suit is the very next thing on my list, so I have to be reasonable.
2. Buhlmann vs.RGBM. Perhaps wrongly, I had the impression that for my purely recreationally diving, either algorithm would work to keep me safe. I will be following all safety factors diligently, at all times. RGBM being proprietary and our not being able to completely understand it's workings did not cause me the concern it has others. Perhaps I am too trusting.
3. To the extent anyone can verify that the compass on the Vyper specifically or even Suunto DCs in general are sub-par (let's define it as "noticeably worse than a decent dedicated compass," that would be important to me. If I make a trade off to obtain a certain feature, it needs to work and not be just a bullet point for their features list.
4. I have read much about Suunto's faulty sensor issue, as well as how, sadly, a resort to litigation was required to make Suunto do what Shearwater would have done with a phone call. But my thinking is that if Suunto made amends and is now making quality products, I would be wiling to give them the benefit of the doubt going forward. Just by way of one example, I think of all of the class action lawsuits against major motor vehicle manufacturers over the years. If we applied this standard to our cars, what would we drive?
5. Larger screen and excellent visibility is very important to me. I will not be wearing this device as a watch. My 58 year old eyes are not getting any better. Go big or go home! If forum members believe one screen or the other has better visibility, that would be important to me.
6. As Marsh9077 points out, service is important to me. I guess I have the opposite of the "disposable" mentality. I love hearing stories like the one he told and being cared about as a customer.
I promise this will be my final round, then a decision will be made and an order placed.
Again, thank you all, very much.
1 The Perdix sounds ideal, but in all honesty, I would feel silly having this be my first computer. It has all the hallmarks of being my next and probably last computer. Getting a good exposure suit is the very next thing on my list, so I have to be reasonable.
2. Buhlmann vs.RGBM. Perhaps wrongly, I had the impression that for my purely recreationally diving, either algorithm would work to keep me safe. I will be following all safety factors diligently, at all times. RGBM being proprietary and our not being able to completely understand it's workings did not cause me the concern it has others. Perhaps I am too trusting.
3. To the extent anyone can verify that the compass on the Vyper specifically or even Suunto DCs in general are sub-par (let's define it as "noticeably worse than a decent dedicated compass," that would be important to me. If I make a trade off to obtain a certain feature, it needs to work and not be just a bullet point for their features list.
4. I have read much about Suunto's faulty sensor issue, as well as how, sadly, a resort to litigation was required to make Suunto do what Shearwater would have done with a phone call. But my thinking is that if Suunto made amends and is now making quality products, I would be wiling to give them the benefit of the doubt going forward. Just by way of one example, I think of all of the class action lawsuits against major motor vehicle manufacturers over the years. If we applied this standard to our cars, what would we drive?
5. Larger screen and excellent visibility is very important to me. I will not be wearing this device as a watch. My 58 year old eyes are not getting any better. Go big or go home! If forum members believe one screen or the other has better visibility, that would be important to me.
6. As Marsh9077 points out, service is important to me. I guess I have the opposite of the "disposable" mentality. I love hearing stories like the one he told and being cared about as a customer.
I promise this will be my final round, then a decision will be made and an order placed.
Again, thank you all, very much.
Have 4 divers in my family. Between us we have 2 x Vyper Air, 1 x Vyper2, 3 x Vyper. All have worked flawlessly and provide all the information we need to dive safely.
The Vyper Airs and the Vyper2 have a digital compass that go rather unused. I wear an analogue compass in a bungee mount on the back of my left hand.
The Vypers we have are a few years old and do not have the compass, the Vyper referred to by the OP with the compass is the Vyper Novo.
It should be noted that the Vyper Novo is able to be paired up with transmitter to be wireless air integrated...this is a nice feature should the OP want to take advantage of it.
The Suunto algorithm is touted to be very conservative. We have taken our computers with us on a few trips over the years and have not found it to be all that limiting. We dove in Malapascua Philippines to watch thresher sharks...we were hanging out at @ 30 meters deep and did not feel like we had any less dive time than anyone else, nor were we jonesing for more time in the water.
What we have found in a chartered dive scenario is that most of the divers are vacation/occasional divers who have horrible air consumption rates, this forces them to the surface far sooner than bottom time. AND at 30m to 40m deep one is going to be limited to bottom regardless.
Shearwater makes nice products, from what I have seen, and they have a reputation for stellar customer service. They are a bit more expensive though. Shearwater would be great candidate if one is willing to pay the extra money and/or one plans to get in to serious tech diving. As another poster already mentioned, any computer will be fine for recreational diving.
Suunto has a bad rep because they had a period where their depth sensors were defective making the computers unusable. Despite being aware of the issue they refused to replace the affected computers until there was a class action lawsuit levied against them. Suunto settled the lawsuit for US original purchasers by offering a replacement computer. Unfortunately this settlement does not cover computer purchased outside the US or computers purchased 2nd hand (coverage of a 2nd hand computer would be a long-shot anyways).
Despite their reputation from the bad depth sensor issue, it would seem that is a thing of the past and the affected units predates the introduction of the Vyper Novo and Zoop Novo models. I can offer no guarantees but I don't think one will have an issue with any of the current model Suunto computers.
As a divemaster and member of 2 dive clubs, I am often asked by new divers about what they should purchase. Here is my standard advice:
1. Make a list of what features you feel you must have (i.e., backlight, photo luminescent display, air integration, planning mode, specific algorithm, compass, wireless data transfer, etc., etc., etc.)
2. Establish your budget.
3. Find the model with the features you feel you must have that most closely fits your budget.
There are some great "do all" computers on the market with lost of fancy features, the more features the more one will pay.
Some notes on features:
All our computers are LCD displays with backlights. None of them are photo luminescent. I wish they were photo luminescent though as I almost always dive with a torch, and for when I don't need the torch in my hand I don't need the backlight to see my computer display. For those times when I have torch in hand, it would be much nicer to be able to just hit the face with my torch to get it to glow than hit the button to momentarily turn on the backlight.
LED displays do not need a backlight. Be aware that some are harder to see on the surface in sunlight than others.
As stated above I prefer an analogue compass to a digital one. Digital compasses, in my experience, tend to be finicky with regard to how much they can be tilted before they stop "lock up" and stop updating the heading, I find this much easier to control with an analogue compass.
With regards to the compass built into Suunto computers, you have to press a button to change the display to see the compass. To me this is kind of a pain as I dive with air integration and in horizontal trim with my arms like that displayed in my avatar picture my computer (on right forearm) and compass (on back of left hand) are like a dashboard that I glance at throughout the dive...changing my computer to compass mode removes some useful info from screen until it reverts back to the primary display or I change it back manually. Typically I would rather just dive and glance rather than press buttons, despite the fact that I am intimately familiar with the computers we use.
Gas switching is only relevant if you diving with different gas mixes.
I don't know of a computer currently being produced that doesn't have a nitrox feature.
The ONLY feature that I wish the Suunto computers my family uses had was when it counts down a safety stop it would be nice if gave minutes and seconds instead of just minutes. At the end of the dive when you have to pee or are just plain bored out of your mind, that last couple of minutes can seem like forever and it would be nice to know how much of those minutes are left. Not critical but I wish our computers had this feature.
More important than any feature(s) is that one be familiar with their computer and the information it is providing...this is the number one reason to own a computer rather than rent when one is diving....with a rental one may get a unit they are not familiar with. A computer is not very useful if one can not understand/interpret the information it is providing.
Best of luck with whatever you choose.
-Z
The Vyper Airs and the Vyper2 have a digital compass that go rather unused. I wear an analogue compass in a bungee mount on the back of my left hand.
The Vypers we have are a few years old and do not have the compass, the Vyper referred to by the OP with the compass is the Vyper Novo.
It should be noted that the Vyper Novo is able to be paired up with transmitter to be wireless air integrated...this is a nice feature should the OP want to take advantage of it.
The Suunto algorithm is touted to be very conservative. We have taken our computers with us on a few trips over the years and have not found it to be all that limiting. We dove in Malapascua Philippines to watch thresher sharks...we were hanging out at @ 30 meters deep and did not feel like we had any less dive time than anyone else, nor were we jonesing for more time in the water.
What we have found in a chartered dive scenario is that most of the divers are vacation/occasional divers who have horrible air consumption rates, this forces them to the surface far sooner than bottom time. AND at 30m to 40m deep one is going to be limited to bottom regardless.
Shearwater makes nice products, from what I have seen, and they have a reputation for stellar customer service. They are a bit more expensive though. Shearwater would be great candidate if one is willing to pay the extra money and/or one plans to get in to serious tech diving. As another poster already mentioned, any computer will be fine for recreational diving.
Suunto has a bad rep because they had a period where their depth sensors were defective making the computers unusable. Despite being aware of the issue they refused to replace the affected computers until there was a class action lawsuit levied against them. Suunto settled the lawsuit for US original purchasers by offering a replacement computer. Unfortunately this settlement does not cover computer purchased outside the US or computers purchased 2nd hand (coverage of a 2nd hand computer would be a long-shot anyways).
Despite their reputation from the bad depth sensor issue, it would seem that is a thing of the past and the affected units predates the introduction of the Vyper Novo and Zoop Novo models. I can offer no guarantees but I don't think one will have an issue with any of the current model Suunto computers.
As a divemaster and member of 2 dive clubs, I am often asked by new divers about what they should purchase. Here is my standard advice:
1. Make a list of what features you feel you must have (i.e., backlight, photo luminescent display, air integration, planning mode, specific algorithm, compass, wireless data transfer, etc., etc., etc.)
2. Establish your budget.
3. Find the model with the features you feel you must have that most closely fits your budget.
There are some great "do all" computers on the market with lost of fancy features, the more features the more one will pay.
Some notes on features:
All our computers are LCD displays with backlights. None of them are photo luminescent. I wish they were photo luminescent though as I almost always dive with a torch, and for when I don't need the torch in my hand I don't need the backlight to see my computer display. For those times when I have torch in hand, it would be much nicer to be able to just hit the face with my torch to get it to glow than hit the button to momentarily turn on the backlight.
LED displays do not need a backlight. Be aware that some are harder to see on the surface in sunlight than others.
As stated above I prefer an analogue compass to a digital one. Digital compasses, in my experience, tend to be finicky with regard to how much they can be tilted before they stop "lock up" and stop updating the heading, I find this much easier to control with an analogue compass.
With regards to the compass built into Suunto computers, you have to press a button to change the display to see the compass. To me this is kind of a pain as I dive with air integration and in horizontal trim with my arms like that displayed in my avatar picture my computer (on right forearm) and compass (on back of left hand) are like a dashboard that I glance at throughout the dive...changing my computer to compass mode removes some useful info from screen until it reverts back to the primary display or I change it back manually. Typically I would rather just dive and glance rather than press buttons, despite the fact that I am intimately familiar with the computers we use.
Gas switching is only relevant if you diving with different gas mixes.
I don't know of a computer currently being produced that doesn't have a nitrox feature.
The ONLY feature that I wish the Suunto computers my family uses had was when it counts down a safety stop it would be nice if gave minutes and seconds instead of just minutes. At the end of the dive when you have to pee or are just plain bored out of your mind, that last couple of minutes can seem like forever and it would be nice to know how much of those minutes are left. Not critical but I wish our computers had this feature.
More important than any feature(s) is that one be familiar with their computer and the information it is providing...this is the number one reason to own a computer rather than rent when one is diving....with a rental one may get a unit they are not familiar with. A computer is not very useful if one can not understand/interpret the information it is providing.
Best of luck with whatever you choose.
-Z
Both work. Bulmann is quite simplistic and had a nasty hack known as Gradient Factors added on top to add conservatism. RGBM, in the case of Suuntos like the Vyper the algorithm is a similarly simplistic dissolved gas model (as used for most of a century) but with a different set of hacks that address particular diver behaviours to ‘encourage’ better behaviour, such as avoiding sawtooth profiles, short surface intervals etc.
The Gradient Factor hack was introduced particularly to let “Technical” divers control the depth of the first stop so as to ape the then fashionable VPM and so called deep stop strategy. It has turned out not to help technical divers but still, like kids using hard racing brake compounds that never get to working temperature on road cars, the crowd has gone wild.
What really matters is stuff like the screen, usability, number of buttons, price etc. Something like the Eon Steel is lovely but also very expensive, especially in the US, similarly the Perdix. The Teric and Garmin are also madly expensive.
I have a Perdix as a backup for a CCR. It replaced a non CCR Suunto that I had used for two years with the CCr and years before for Trimix. I recently picked up a transmitter for £200 and it came with a free Oceanic computer similar to a Vyper. Don’t waste your money. If you can’t make up your mind just buy the cheapest one.
If it will be your next get it now, why spend money on a computer you know that you will upgrade? Buy once cry once.
I usually don't recommend or not companies unless directly asked, except for suunto. I would avoid suunto for the above mentioned customer service issues.
From the two you started with the peregrine is the better choice for other reasons. Here in NE the VIS is pretty bad, the screen is better lit and color making it much easier to read. For that reason alone in our waters it makes it the better option.
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