Top Six Reasons why one would want to dive with a Full Face Mask

[OkByMe]

For a single tank dive, it is fine. Just carry a backup mask and you are good to go if you have a reg failure with the FFM. Let it be known that you will need a surface valve that you can open to breath through rather than your regulator on the surface and that is usually a must have option. Multiple tanks, such as side mount, back mount with stages and especially if carrying different mixes, becomes an inventory management problem. The first thing is you need gas switch blocks, complicating hose routing and failure points, and it is critically important to manage your gas switches through the block or blocks. Wrong gas at the the right time could be tragic at best. You are still out the money for the multiple regulators and the extra hoses to the block plus the pricey blocks too and you still need to carry a backup mask. A FFM or helmet with surface supplied air still needs a switch block for bailout, but mix is surface controlled and fed to the diver. when you have to do this yourself, it is not worth the expense or risk to gear up with multiple sources with a FFM.

 

[Akimbo]

... Let it be known that you will need a surface valve that you can open to breath through rather than your regulator on the surface and that is usually a must have option...

How many FFMs have a surface breathing valve?

The only one that I have seen seems low on the mask requiring keeping your head pretty high out of the water or rolling on your back. Definitely a good thing to have on deck though.

... Multiple tanks, such as side mount, back mount with stages and especially if carrying different mixes, becomes an inventory management problem. The first thing is you need gas switch blocks, complicating hose routing and failure points, and it is critically important to manage your gas switches through the block or blocks. Wrong gas at the the right time could be tragic at best. You are still out the money for the multiple regulators and the extra hoses to the block plus the pricey blocks too and you still need to carry a backup mask...

Another problem with gas switching manifolds that commercial diving has learned is the eventual likelihood of one or more valves leaking when shut and contaminating the mix. The better-designed surface-based gas switching consoles actually vent the gas between the shut-off and a check valve to prevent cross-contamination of mixes. Obviously this solution would be way to complex and large for a diver to carry. QDs (Quick Disconnect) don't have that risk.

I am really surprised that a robust QD system isn't offered by FFM manufacturers. It is a bit of a PITA to adapt standard hoses to off-the-shelf industrial QDs and most of them are not ideal when wearing heavy gloves.

A FFM manufacturer could have one of several industrial QD manufacturers make a special run with a female regulator fitting (basically a drill-out O2 fitting) on one end and a female 3/8" LP hose connection on the other. They could select a less expensive LP series QD and add a larger plastic handle to the slider to make handing with gloves easier. The plastic slider rings could be in different colors and/or different shapes (round/hex/various nubs) that divers could use to designate different gasses.

 

[kwinter]

Which FFM have you use with rebreathers?
I am looking for FFM that are rebreather and/or double hose regulator friendly (compatible). I have used some vintage FFM that will accept a typical second stage and therefore will also accept some DSV or DH mouthpiece “T's”, but I am looking for other options. Many modern FFM have built in second stages and don't play well with others.

I have used both Interspiro (AGA) and OTS Guardian masks. Neither one is designed for CCR use, so there is some custom work to be done. But they both have worked fine. The easiest way to get FFM on a rebreather is to use the Nova/Panorama mask. But there is a caution. There are 2 versions of the mask. The OC version has an oral nasal cup just like the AGA and Guardian. But the CCR version removes the cup and has a bite piece on a small corrugated stalk. The reasoning is that CO2 could build up in the mask and therefore you should breathe directly through a mouthpiece. However, that mouthpiece makes the use of comms very difficult. You have to spit out the bite piece, do your communication, and then manage to get the mouthpiece back in your mouth. I have been told this is next to impossible.

With a fairly good seal on an oral nasal cup, it should be a simple matter to avoid the CO2 buildup, especially if you avoid hard work while diving.

By the way, a bailout valve is an absolute necessity when using FFM with CCR. I do have a modified AGA with Divematics BOV that I haven't used in a few years if you're interested.

Could you provide me a link of your preferred choices for the ball valve, manifold block and QDs?
I have used some, but I was wondering what are your preference. If you want, you can PM me so that we don’t derail this thread.

I use Omniswivel switch block and QDs. Any manifold block will work and all depends on the application.

How many FFMs have a surface breathing valve?

The only one that I have seen seems low on the mask requiring keeping your head pretty high out of the water or rolling on your back. Definitely a good thing to have on deck though.

The AGA has an Ambient Breathing Valve available as an option. I believe it is standard on the Guardian. I have not found them to be too low on the visor at all.


iPhone. iTypo. iApologize.

 

[ReefGuy]

The AGA has an Ambient Breathing Valve available as an option. I believe it is standard on the Guardian. I have not found them to be too low on the visor at all.


iPhone. iTypo. iApologize.

Mine has an ambient breathing valve on the right temple.

 

[GoIllini]

I dive both an OTS guardian or an ocean reef predator, depending on whether I'm in my summer diving configuration or doing winter/ice diving. (The OTS has a better reputation on freeflows, which is a risk in 33 degree water and 20 degree surface temps). I've done a couple hundred dives- about half in a FFM. Much of my diving is Lake Michigan or local midwestern diving where bottom temperatures can be below 45 degrees Fahrenheit, and my typical dive is 45-75 minutes. So I think it's nice to have for the kind of diving I do.


Addressing/Mitigating the drawbacks:

-Frankly I think every diver should carry a pony if they are going below CESA depth (30'). If you go off of that assumption, add a decent amount of practice handling emergencies, and add one piece of gear on (which I'll get to in a minute), most of the risks people cite about OOA and free flows aren't quite eliminated but are 80-90% mitigated relative to the same configuration with a standard regulator.

-I honestly don't notice a difference in my SAC rate between an FFM and a standard reg. I normally move pretty fast- and I'm in a drysuit- and I can stay at 30 feet for 60-75 minutes and still hit the surface with 1000 PSI. (I am diving a 100 HP though). Honestly on a dive that involves several depth changes, I think my drysuit is a bigger factor in my SAC than the mask.

-What about the pros when it comes to safety? There are also issues like oxygen toxicity and unconscious diver situations- not to mention hypothermia in cold water- where a reg is useless but an FFM can bail you out. It's also a lot harder to lose a mask than to lose a reg. Sometimes in diving, a little more emphasis is placed on curing really dangerous situations than on simply preventing them from happening. Keeping the diver warm and comfortable and keeping the source of air in place are just as important as the complexity of doffing the mask to access alternate air sources that aren't on a gas switching block.

-Ultimately the individual diver is a much bigger factor in his own safety than exactly what equipment he is diving (assuming it's properly serviced). Not unlike a drysuit, an FFM adds some complexity to your predive and task loading to your dive, but it's very manageable and you get the hang of it.

My configuration:

-I dive a 100 HP steel tank. It weighs less than an 80 AL net of buoyancy and carries more air. If your buddy is diving an 80 and a standard regulator, he will run out of air long before you. Better yet, get a 149 HP Faber if your buddy gets one. It weighs 20 lbs more but you will hit your NDL at any depth greater than 40 feet before you hit 1000 psi.

-23 HP faber pony bottle. Enough to get me to the surface and do a safety stop from ~120 feet, including about 2 minutes of reserves to fix a problem. Attached to the pony reg are a hose to my gas switching block and my original Aqualung Legend second stage.

-Gas Switching Block. Omniswivel has an awesome gas switching block for about $350, but you can often find them used for much cheaper. I pair that with three quick disconnects- two from XS Scuba- one that attaches to the mask, one that attaches from my primary 1st stage to the gas switching block, and then an omniswivel quick disconnect that goes from the pony to the block. (This is designed to prevent me from mixing up the connections.) With help from the quick connects, the gas switching block assembles in half the time it takes me to screw in my primary first-stage regulator.

-Main octo is attached to an upper d-ring; usually yellow color. Pony reg is now attached to a lower d-ring where I can reach it easily.

-I dive an OTS guardian in the winter and an Ocean Reef Predator in the summer. They're connected to a line going to the gas switching block via a quick disconnect, so they're easy to swap.

-1st stage on the main tank is again an Aqualung Legend- great for cold water.

Other thoughts:

-As part of the predive, you need to check to make sure your block is getting air from your main tank, not your pony. Again, that's why I use two different quick disconnects for my tank and my pony bottle- it's easier to know which goes where and which tank I'm breathing from.

-I think the Draeger Panorama actually comes with a disconnectable 2nd stage- both primary and octo. If you're really worried about an OOA or free flow, get a pony bottle and dive with the draeger. (You still have to practice doffing the mask and switching to a half mask in the event of a total mask failure.)

-Practice doffing and donning the mask and switching back and forth to a half mask and reg. Several dozen times. With gloves on. While hovering. Don't forget to exhale the whole time. You need to know how to do it even if you dive with a gas switching block, and you especially need to know how to do it if you don't have one. This should really be practiced in water that you can stand up in. The shallow water is also good at holding you accountable if you can't switch to your octo before you gain or lose 2-3 feet in depth.

-Like everything in SCUBA, buy used but get it serviced. Seriously, you'll save a grand or two.

I honestly think diving an FFM with a pony and gas switching block is a lot safer than diving a single AL 80. If you have an OOA in the config most divers use, you need to scramble for your buddy- you always swim within 10 feet of him and he's always paying attention, right? Or maybe you have a pony or spare air to reach and grab. If I run into an OOA (which I hope to never have), I flip a switch on the gas switching block by my right thigh and head for the surface. I'm worse off than diving a standard reg in a free-flow, but if you practice doffing a bunch, it's nearly as easy as reaching for your pony octo, and a whole lot easier than swimming for a buddy. And since it's a free-flow- not an OOA, you generally have a little more time to execute.

Finally don't forget all of the situations where an FFM might keep you safer- oxygen toxicity, all kinds of unconscious diver situations, oh and hypothermia. I don't know what the hazard rate on divers falling unconscious compares to second stage regulator freeflows on an OTS Guardian or Ocean Reef (both are pretty rare).

This isn't something for new divers, or every diver. However, if you have a good ~50, maybe more like 100 dives, you have the money, and you do a lot of diving in cold water (and you already have a drysuit), it's definitely a good way to go. You also get a better field of view, get to breath through your nose, and stay in touch with the surface and other divers. Don't forget the look-cool factor.

Happy diving.

 

[Outbound]

I think we're one the same page, but hung up with terminology....
We don't have octopuses in tech diving. The long hose is the primary in which I breathe off of normally, and is the thing I donate in an emergency, as I know it's working. It hasn't been clogged with rocks or mud. The OOG diver knows it's working, because I've been breathing off of it for quite some time. Which brings a bit of piece of mind. Usually, a necklace of bungee holds the secondary regulator just below the chin.

An Octopus is typically bungeed somewhere on the right side of a body in a recreational rig, usually pretty low by some sort of retainer. It could be cracked, broken, filled with mud, rocks, sand, etc. It may or may not work. You and your buddy really don't know until he has taken that first breath. In using a FFM, this octopus would be what is donated to an OOG diver.

I hear this all the time from the DIR types but I’m not buying it. At least not fully. How do you know your alternate works and will give you air if you need it when you donate your primary? After all, you haven’t breathed from it since you tested it on the surface, right?

Your argument is more about proper rigging and placement of equipment, with which I completely agree. My octo is at chest height on my right side, never dangling in the muck and always ready to be deployed. By all means, dive a long hose if you like. But leave the made-up rationales for primary donate’s supposed superiority aside.

 

[emoreira]

Well, at least the OP started the thread with "Top Six Reasons why one would want to dive with a Full Face Mask" and not with "Top Six Reasons why not to use a FFM".
The posts to this thread are great and a nice discussion was held. I guess that that was what the OP wanted.

 

[Superlyte27]

I hear this all the time from the DIR types but I’m not buying it. At least not fully. How do you know your alternate works and will give you air if you need it when you donate your primary? After all, you haven’t breathed from it since you tested it on the surface, right?

Your argument is more about proper rigging and placement of equipment, with which I completely agree. My octo is at chest height on my right side, never dangling in the muck and always ready to be deployed. By all means, dive a long hose if you like. But leave the made-up rationales for primary donate’s supposed superiority aside.

It’s pretty simple. If it doesn’t work, I take my primary back and we start buddy breathing.

 

[Superlyte27]

I hear this all the time from the DIR types but I’m not buying it. At least not fully. How do you know your alternate works and will give you air if you need it when you donate your primary? After all, you haven’t breathed from it since you tested it on the surface, right?

Your argument is more about proper rigging and placement of equipment, with which I completely agree. My octo is at chest height on my right side, never dangling in the muck and always ready to be deployed. By all means, dive a long hose if you like. But leave the made-up rationales for primary donate’s supposed superiority aside.

How many times have you seen an out of gas diver? I’ve seen a dozen over the last 30 years of diving. What reg does that diver grab (without warning or permission) from you? In every single instance I’ve witnessed, the panicked diver grabs the one out of your mouth. They think they are going to die and they know that reg has gas in it.

It’s just simpler to give them the reg they want… on a nice 5’ or 7’ hose.

 

[Outbound]

How many times have you seen an out of gas diver? I’ve seen a dozen over the last 30 years of diving. What reg does that diver grab (without warning or permission) from you? In every single instance I’ve witnessed, the panicked diver grabs the one out of your mouth. They think they are going to die and they know that reg has gas in it.

It’s just simpler to give them the reg they want… on a nice 5’ or 7’ hose.

Okay, but you are changing the goalposts a bit, aren't you? Your original statement was that the traditional rec setup leads to octos dangling in the sand, silt, and rocks and getting clogged, or that they might be cracked and not working. I asked how do you know your alternate is working if an OOA diver grabs your primary and you need to use your alternate. Presumably, your answer would be that you checked it before your dive and that you have it secured on a bungee under your chin, out of the sand, silt, muck, etc. Well, my octo isn't exactly under my chin, but it is not far from where you keep yours, and I know that it works because I check it before every dive and I keep it secured where it's supposed to be. All divers, regardless of their gear setup, should always keep their gear in proper working order and should check it before each and every dive.

So, once again, I say that you should definitely dive a long hose and use primary donate if you prefer that. If you want to argue that an OOA diver will most likely grab for a buddy's primary, and that means the hose should be longer, that's fine with me too (although I would definitely like to see some actual hard data on this, rather than the usual anecdotal evidence that gets passed around). But that has nothing to do with knowing that an octo in a tech setup magically has to be working because, you know, it's a tech setup! Versus an octo in a rec setup likely not working, because, well, those rec divers don't know what they are doing and are just begging for problems.

Dive how you like, but please spare those who don't dive the way you do the DIR sanctimony.