Toby

[Diverd1]

I was in Tobermory today and the people I talked to said there would be no changes from last year.
Just as a note the water is cold but clear was getting 40-50 feet on the Niagara II . Dive computer said it was 28 F never did trust the thermometer on that thing anyway

 

[seahunter]

A 'Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent' is not dangerous. Do not confuse it with a 'Bouyant Emergency Ascent'. You're quite right those of you who know the difference. If you don't understand the difference, perhaps you ought to get out your basic manual. We also offer free refreshers of all pool skills every Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday evenings at out facility. Please call first.

CESA is standard training for all new divers in the class, pool and open water. It is the choice in out-of-air situations in most shallow water divers. Guess what? At the end of a CESA, you are safely on the surface breathing all the air you want. At the end of a Safe Second activity, you are still on the bottom, jammed up against your buddy, scared and in danger of a free flow.
Gee! I wonder what I'd choose.

CESA is not a 'last ditch option'. It is preferable in many cases over Safe Second and preferable in all cases to Buddy Breathing.

 

[detroit diver]

Seahunter,

I wouldn't work for your shop for anything. Not with your attitude.

I'll let the folks here decide what you did or didn't say. I've highlited the "best of seahunter". They can draw their own conclusions.

 

[seahunter]

Doppler has an interesting idea and he's right. If the reg freeflows (supposedly from icing not from lack of service), turning it off for a few moments may well melt the ice and make it OK. It's probably still a good idea to end the dive. It will likely happen again.
May I suggest that if you have the time and presence of mind to be able to octo with your buddy, shut off the air, wait and turn it back on... it's not really an emergency?

 

[seahunter]

Once again DD you've proven you're unable to accept that some one else may have a valid idea.
You've written off S2K based on a personal disparity of views.
It won't really affect the facility if you never visit but isn't there any curiosity about why we have a disproportionately large share of the rec scuba training market in Ontario? Isn't there any interest in seeing what the largest scuba facility in Ontaro might have to offer? Don't you wonder what a designated scuba Career Development Center looks like?
I won't even know if you visit (or don't).
It seems to me that your closed-mindedness hurts only one person.

Let's assume you're right about me.. I'm arrogant, a dangerous diver, an unsafe instructor and an ass..... to boot.

So what! Call first to be sure I'm not in.

To refuse an opportunity to expand your diving knowledge or to assume you can't pick up even a tidbit of information by a visit to S2K because you don't like the fact I have a different viewpoint from you proves my point.

 

[seahunter]

WetVet and DivingGal have mentioned a phenomena that I don't believe exists - a double header freeflow.
Don't get me wrong - a double header happens (that's when both second stages freeflow - right WV?) but...

It isn't the second stage that freezes and causes a freeflow. It's the first stage. It's a natural assumption to make since there is no apparent change in the first stage while the second stage(s) go crazy with air flowing out. The reason they do that is that the first stage has 'frozen' open. Even freezing is a misnomer since steel and plastic can't freeze. What's happened is that water in the air or reg has frozen in the first stage and the resulting ice on the HP seat won't let it close completely so the IP pressure builds up and, as it's supposed to, the second stage freeflows so the hose won't burst and the diver can still get air. That's why regs today are called fail safe - if they fail you still get air. It wasn't always that way.

This freezing can occur in 42 degree water (F) because of the inherent drop in temperature when the air pressure drops. The greatest drop in pressure (from 3000 to 150) by far is in the first stage and that's where the problem occurs.

What causes a double header? As the IP (intermediate pressure) rises from the frozen open first stage, the second stage will let it escape - it freeflows. Generally the main second stage is more sensitive (lower poppet spring pressure) than the octopus so it free flows first. Usually the release of pressure from the main second is enough so the octopus doesn't freeflow. There's an assumption that the octopus is OK but the main is not.
Actually, if both second stages were adjusted to the identical poppet spring pressure (hard to do), they'd both start to freeflow at the same time. Also, if the first stage freeze is severe and the air pressure flowing from it to the second stages is great, the feeflowing from the main reg is not sufficient to relieve the pressure so the octopus will also freeflow.

This is pretty standard stuff but only if you've taken an Equipment Specialty or Advanced Equipment Specialty course. It's probably not required knowledge for safe diving but I find it very interesting and it can be useful.

If you've had similar experiences that you've found hard to understand, let me know and I'll try to explain what happened.


BTW, you're also right that buddy breathing or using the octopus greatly increases the likelihood of a freeze-up and freeflow.

 

[detroit diver]

I'm unable to accept what YOU consider valid. To me it's dangerous.

I've written off S2K because, as in any corporation, the ideals and direction eminate from the top. That's you.

Large share of the market? It's called marketing and sales. It has nothing whatever to do with quality. PADI is a perfect example of this. You're impressed with the size of your store. That means nothing to me. I've been in business long enough to know that bigger does not mean better.

seahunter once bubbled...
Once again DD you've proven you're unable to accept that some one else may have a valid idea.
You've written off S2K based on a personal disparity of views.
It won't really affect the facility if you never visit but isn't there any curiosity about why we have a disproportionately large share of the rec scuba training market in Ontario? Isn't there any interest in seeing what the largest scuba facility in Ontaro might have to offer? Don't you wonder what a designated scuba Career Development Center looks like?
I won't even know if you visit (or don't).
It seems to me that your closed-mindedness hurts only one person.

Let's assume you're right about me.. I'm arrogant, a dangerous diver, an unsafe instructor and an ass..... to boot.

So what! Call first to be sure I'm not in.

To refuse an opportunity to expand your diving knowledge or to assume you can't pick up even a tidbit of information by a visit to S2K because you don't like the fact I have a different viewpoint from you proves my point.

 

[Chet]

It is the choice in out-of-air situations in most shallow water divers. Guess what? At the end of a CESA, you are safely on the surface breathing all the air you want. At the end of a Safe Second activity, you are still on the bottom, jammed up against your buddy, scared and in danger of a free flow.


I assume you mean by safe second you are referring to an alternate air source? If you are saying a CESA is prefered to a safe second in an out of air situation, not low on air, then if I remember PADI has 5 low on air/out of air responses. In this order of priority. 1 Normal ascent 2. Alternate air source ascent(safe second?) 3 Controlled emergency swimming ascent 4 Buddy breathing 5 Bouyant emergency swimming ascent. So as a PADI CDC you are teaching or suggesting CESA should be done before a safe second, when PADI say with their experience that an alternate air source ascent should be used before a CESA. Granted, I could be wrong and PADI has changed the order on me and If they have I will find a CD and get an update. Or maybe they have changed the colour of the print in the instructor mannual(I still have a print version, I like books) and put in that in shallow water, 30ft., the CESA will now be 2 and the alternate air source will be 3 and if you are in 32ft then the safe second is still 2 and the CESA goes back to 3. Oh I forgot they also say the CESA should be used if the surface is closer then you buddy. So the only PADI CDC facility in Eastern Canada says your buddy is 5, 10, 15 feet away , it does not matter, and you run out of air because of lack of proper air management you should ignore his safe second, we are in 29ft of water, and do a fin pivot and then look up and reach up and then take three deep total lung volumes(oh we are out of air)and then swim to the surface making the ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh sound, I think that was 30, or slower. Now we are at the surface and our buddy has just wondered what was wrong with his reg and he must figure out if it was 2 or 3 and was he in shallow water or deeper then 30ft.

Question. Is a free-flow an out of air situation or a low on air situation?(A free-flow is an example of when a dive should be aborted rec. or tech - even if it has been controlled)

If you are in a situation where a CESA is your only option you or your buddy have made a boo-boo. You have not been observing your air in that tank on your back or side or where ever (pressure gauge) and you or your buddy have lost track of each other.

BE SAFE
Chet

 

[seahunter]

You're still doing it DD! Why do you insist interpreting my words in the most negative manner and then using that interpretation in a vain attempt to insult me?
I know what I said; everyone else knows what I said; it was written in plain English.
Why not try just reading a post and accepting the words.

Here we go again:
At no time did I say bigger was better!
At no time did I say that S2K is mirror of me and my ideas!

I simply suggested that for you to write off a company because on some obscure scuba chat line you disagreed with one of the staff of that store is pretty pigheaded and that you might be missing out on something.
In fact, with over 40 professional staff and 5 full time store staff including a general manager with almost 20 years at the store, you can rest assured that almost all decisions at S2K are by concensus. Furthermore, with respect to training, every instructor at S2K is fully responsible for their own actions. I don't sign certs at all anymore - they do! Under no circumstances would the management suggest to a professional any actions or words contrary to standards. There are profiles with emails on the site for many of the leaders. Ask them yourself what goes on at S2K. I'm not hiding anything. In fact, my whole point in the last post was to encourage you to visit and see what we do.

Our figures suggest that 65% of our new business comes by referral. That is, from happy customers who have sent their friends to us.

Size is certainly no measure of quality. I'm not sure what your reference to PADI at this point was for however, size and increased growth over a very long time has to mean something is right!

Why not drop in and see S2K?
I feel I have an unfair advantge in this conversation since you've not seen S2K so don't really have any knowledge about it.
You might find a lot more reasons why you don't like me, S2K and PADI and then you can speak with authority.
If that's not possible, at least get our weekly e-letter for a few issues and you'll get a better idea. www.scuba2000.com/new.htm

 

[seahunter]

Hi Chet,
Welcome aboard. Finally someone who knows what they're talking about. You have the PADI recommendations exactly right and that's the way new divers are taught (supposedly).

Your reply seems a little personal to me. This is not a class for new divers. It's a public forum where you, me and even DD can say whatever we like even if it's not in line with accepted philosophy. In fact, I often do just that to see who will jump onto the soapbox next and straighten out the rest of the divers in Ontario. I certainly don't expect everyone or anyone for that matter to agree with me or modify their behavior because of my ideas. S2K is a CDC. I'm just a staff member there and I have my own ideas on a wide variety of topics regarding scuba including training. I've shared them with many other leaders including PADI (I was a member of the PADI Advisory committee for two years whereby PADI solicits and listens to all kinds of crackpot suggestions from all over.).
Neither PADI, our CDC, any instructor or even any diver is expectd to do what I say on this forum (or you or DD!). This is a place to share ideas and discuss their merits or lack thereof.

Your scenarios are good. It's impossible to to know what's the best solution to an underwater problem. My suggestion was that a CESA is preferable to Buddy Breathing. I believe we agree on that which is good since CESA is required training while BB is not.
I went further to say that in the right circumstances (shallow water ++), a CESA is preferable even to safe second use.
Both you and DD have made reference to the distance to your buddy as being the deciding factor. Certainly it's ONE of the deciding factors.
In my experience, despite what PADI says or good divers promote, your buddy is seldom within touching distance. Touching distance is 24 inches. No way! Many buddy teams are often within 24" of each other at times during the dive but throughout the dive? Nope!! Needless to say (Murphy again!), when you need your buddy that's when he's not within touching distance.
I'm not being critical of divers here. It's just not practical nor is it any fun. It definately is not human nature. Heck we're down there to explore.
That being the case, the safe second procedure also involves spotting your buddy, a short swim, contact, signals, securing the octo, re & re your mouthpiece and so on. Let's hope there's no confusion and your buddy instantly knows what you're doing and is there for you when you arrive at his side. Don't give me that junk about simply taking the octo and breathing from it. If you were exploring a wreck and felt a tug and several bumps beside or behind you wouldn't you spin around to see what was happeneing? Just what your out-of-air buddy needs. Again I'm not being crirtical. It's just the way we are. Just think about it!! It happens just like that.
My point was that in less time (in the right circumstances!! There, I said it!!), you could be safely on the surface.

Your description of the CESA exercsie and the problems you see in perfomring it suggest you've not been practicing nor have helped hundreds of new divers master a really simple skill. Quite frankly, if you think about it, a CESA is much simpler to perform that a Safe Secondexercise. Look up, swim up, hum!

AGAIN!! This is my opinion based on my experience. Do what you want with it! I'd like to think that you'd at least think it through rather than just reject it because it's different or because it came from me - but that's your choice.
Regardless, let me assure you that John Cronin is not about to re-write the PADI manual because Alec Peirce has a different idea. I do know that he will listen to new ideas carefully before deciding what to do with them!! Don't be critical of PADI, S2K, a CDC or anyone else because of MY opinions.

I don't consider a freeflow an out-of-air situation. A freeflow is a mechanical breakdown that has it's own remedy. New divers are taught how to handle a freeflow.
A true out-of-air is very rare. It's virtually impossible to manufacture a true out-of-air (that is, everything is fine and suddenly you cannot breath in). Getting very low on air can certainly happen but that's a human failure and the solution can only be suggested. Each situation requires quick analysis and action based on training and experience. Again new divers experience an out-of air situation in the water. They are given a series of options to choose from and hopefully they'll choose the right one.
Even when the tank valve is shut off underwater there's a few seconds to think. When your gauge says you're out of air you may have as much as 2 or 3 minutes to solve your problem. Lots of time!

Am I wrong to suggest that the PADI order of OOA remedies may not be right for all situations??
Does that suggestion condemn me and my diving colleagues to ridicule and contempt?

If you (or DD or anyone) thinks that there is only one right answer to a scuba emergency and anyone who disagrees is a dangerous idiot, this sport is in trouble.
Please contemplate that every skill we currently teach and practice was developed from ideas and discusssions between divers. Those discussions were often long and heated - but fruitful. It's not that long ago that professionals right here in Ontario (myself included) argued vehemently against dropping the use of the J Valve, the CO2 cartridge, Buddy Breathing, harassment during training and many more examples.
They weren't wrong to disagree. They were wrong to think that their ideas were the only right ones.

Maybe it's an age thing.