Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search

[HalcyonDaze]

Robert Ballard worked for the the CIA or a similar agency. His search for the Titanic was actually a cover story for looking for something else (I think it was a lost Russian sub, I am not solid any of this, going totally by memory). He almost certainly has better access into what information is available than most.

My guess is pretty much every modern navy in the Atlantic heard the bang. I bet the last few days have just window dressing on trying to avoid letting the Russians and the Chinese know exactly how thorough US/NATO monitoring of the Atlantic is. Everyone who is anyone in deep submersibles was probably very aware of what was going on.

I know composite materials are not great for pressure vessels. Fiber glass tanks have a finite life, unlike steel. When a fiber breaks it stays broken. Once they noticed the hull starting to fail, it was a runaway train. they just were not going up faster than hull was cracking. This is just my thoughts on the matter.

Ballard's been pretty open for a while now that the USN funded his Titanic search (and the manned dives the following year) with the stipulation that he first take his new toys and check out the wrecks of USS Thresher and USS Scorpion, both of which had already been located and photographed shortly after their losses (1963 and 1968, respectively). I don't think that was publicly acknowledged until at least a decade later (in addition to both subs being nuclear-powered, Scorpion had been on an operational patrol and sank with two Mark 45 ASTOR nuclear-tipped torpedoes onboard; not necessarily something to advertise). The only known Soviet sub loss in that general area of the Atlantic was K-219 down closer to Bermuda, and she didn't sink until October 1986, after Ballard made his first two trips to Titanic.

As far as SOSUS, they picked up something that matched an implosion, but I doubt it was an "everybody in the Atlantic heard it" deal or definitive enough for anyone to say "welp, they're done for, let's not even bother." If nothing else, until the wreckage was found the USN would have been raked over the coals for not putting in maximum effort (EDIT: an ex-USN congressional representative who should know better has already accused them of this); hell, 60 years later some idiots on the internet still believe Aaron Amick's BS about Thresher still hanging on a day after sinking (which like the "banging" noises heard looking for Titan, shows how tricky it is trying to interpret faint sounds in a complex environment while under stress).

I doubt it would be a huge secret that SOSUS heard it; that's been a known thing since the Cold War and one of the reasons the Soviets/Russians developed a number of "oceanographic research" nuclear submarines was to mess with that and other underwater infrastructure.

 

[Jared0425]

Robert Ballard worked for the the CIA or a similar agency. His search for the Titanic was actually a cover story for looking for something else (I think it was a lost Russian sub, I am not solid any of this, going totally by memory). He almost certainly has better access into what information is available than most. As I heard it, the Navy was actually kind of pissed when he actually found the Titanic. They would have preferred a nice quiet failure.

My guess is pretty much every modern navy in the Atlantic heard the bang. I bet the last few days have just window dressing on trying to avoid letting the Russians and the Chinese know exactly how thorough US/NATO monitoring of the Atlantic is. Everyone who is anyone in deep submersibles was probably very aware of what was going on.

I know composite materials are not great for pressure vessels. Fiber glass tanks have a finite life, unlike steel. When a fiber breaks it stays broken. Once they noticed the hull starting to fail, it was a runaway train. they just were not going up faster than hull was cracking. This is just my thoughts on the matter.

The Wood Hole Oceangrapic Institute partnered with the US navy to inspect the wrecks of the USS Thresher and USS Scorpion in a 30 day expedition. Ballard located the wreck quicker than expected and produced a high quality mosaic of both sites and had 18 days left to find Titanic on his own. Jack Grimm and a French team had gone over the wreck without knowing it because they thought their magnetometer was acting up and the side scan was flying too high in the water column.

A British destroyer in 1977 had a MAD hit in that area while chasing a Soviet sub and it has been said that Ballard has access to the info. The Navy and Woodshole were very proud of the Titanic discovery as it hid the purpose of their mission to the two nuke subs.

 

[Manatee Diver]

Eat them and stare into space?

Keep them in the dark and feed them only horse dung.

 

[CT-Rich]

Ballard's been pretty open for a while now that the USN funded his Titanic search (and the manned dives the following year) with the stipulation that he first take his new toys and check out the wrecks of USS Thresher and USS Scorpion, both of which had already been located and photographed shortly after their losses (1963 and 1968, respectively). I don't think that was publicly acknowledged until at least a decade later. The only known Soviet sub loss in that general area of the Atlantic was K-219 down closer to Bermuda, and she didn't sink until October 1986, after Ballard made his first two trips to Titanic.

As far as SOSUS, they picked up something that matched an implosion, but I doubt it was an "everybody in the Atlantic heard it" deal or definitive enough for anyone to say "welp, they're done for, let's not even bother." If nothing else, until the wreckage was found the USN would have been raked over the coals for not putting in maximum effort; hell, 60 years later some idiots on the internet still believe Aaron Amick's BS about Thresher still hanging on a day after sinking (which like the "banging" noises heard looking for Titan, shows how tricky it is trying to interpret faint sounds in a complex environment while under stress).

I doubt it would be a huge secret that SOSUS heard it; that's been a known thing since the Cold War and one of the reasons the Soviets/Russians developed a number of "oceanographic research" nuclear submarines was to mess with that and other underwater infrastructure.

My guess is the Navy looks at a situation like this as a good opportunity to get real experience with their systems and learn a few lessons. A submersible imploding at 12,000 feet is probably the accoustic equivilent of a meteor exploding in the upper atmosphere. With nothing to impede the signal it would travel for hundreds of miles and be picked up by multiple microphones. Once they knew what they were looking for, they could probably isolate it and triangulate it to a pretty small area.

 

[NW Dive Dawg]

There are always going to be "alternative facts".......but the facts as I currently see them indicate that 100% of Oceangates assets and/or equity need to be 100% placed towards the millions of dollars required for the brave and dedicated women and men involved in the rescue and recovery efforts... But that most likely won't happen because the families of the lost are going to sue so the assets will be frozen pending the outcome. In the end, a bunch of lawyers will end up profiting from this tragedy. Sad...

 

[broncobowsher]

Just created a free one:

U.S. Navy Heard What It Believed Was Titan Implosion Days Ago​

Underwater microphones designed to detect enemy submarines first detected Titan tragedy​

The submersible Titan prepares for a dive into a remote area of the Atlantic Ocean on an expedition to the Titanic earlier this month. PHOTO: ACTION AVIATION/ASSOCIATED PRESS
A top secret military acoustic detection system designed to spot enemy submarines first heard what the U.S. Navy suspected was the Titan submersible implosion hours after the vehicle began its mission, officials involved in the search said.
The Navy began listening for the Titan almost as soon as the sub lost communications, according to a U.S. defense official. Shortly after the submersible’s disappearance Sunday, the U.S. system detected what it suspected was the sound of an implosion near the debris site discovered Thursday and reported its findings to the commander on site, U.S. defense officials said.

“The U.S. Navy conducted an analysis of acoustic data and detected an anomaly consistent with an implosion or explosion in the general vicinity of where the Titan submersible was operating when communications were lost,” a senior U.S. Navy official told The Wall Street Journal in a statement. “While not definitive, this information was immediately shared with the Incident Commander to assist with the ongoing search and rescue mission.”
The Navy asked that the specific system used not be named, citing national security concerns.


TAP FOR SOUND
The U.S. Coast Guard on Thursday said all five passengers aboard a missing submersible were believed to be dead after a remote vehicle found debris near the Titanic shipwreck. Photo: OceanGate Expeditions/AFP/Getty Images
Updates to follow as the news develops
Write to Ben Kesling at ben.kesling@wsj.com, Nancy A. Youssef at nancy.youssef@wsj.com, Gordon Lubold at gordon.lubold@wsj.com and Costas Paris at costas.paris@wsj.com
Advertisement - Scroll to Continue

The Missing Titanic Tourists​

More coverage of the Titan submersible, selected by the editors
U.S. Navy Detected What It Believed Was Implosion Days Ago
Submersible Passengers Died in Implosion
Company's Founder Saw Opportunity in Undersea Tourism
Titan May Have Been Operated by a Videogame Controller
Prior Passengers Recount Thrilling Experience
Titan Planned to Sample Site for Environmental DNA
See How Deep the Submersible and Titanic Wreck Are
What We Know and What Could Have Happened
Copyright ©2023 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved. 87990cbe856818d5eddac44c7b1cdeb8

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I'm going to say they did it right. It MAY have been an implosion. But what if it wasn't? What if it was just a camera housing implosion? Or some other mild failure? There was a chance that this could have come out with a positive result. Think how ugly things would turn out if the sub was just stuck and a recovery could have saved them but there wasn't any effort put forward because it was assumed that the noise was an implosion. And they did wind up running out of air afterall.

That like looking at an accident and going, they are all dead and not bother checking. Only to find someone could have survived if a little effort was put into checking.

So hearing a POSSIBLE implosion and staying quiet, yes, the right move. Did it cost a lot of money? Yes. But a good practice for something that doesn't happen very often.

Hindsight is 20/20. Yes, it was an implosion afterall and there was no chance of survival. But until you know it was an implosion or there is no chances of having enough air to survive, there was a chance that the outcome could have been positive.

 

[CT-Rich]

There are always going to be "alternative facts".......but the facts as I currently see them indicate that 100% of Oceangates assets and/or equity need to be 100% placed towards the millions of dollars required for the brave and dedicated women and men involved in the rescue and recovery efforts... But that most likely won't happen because the families of the lost are going to sue. In the end, a bunch of lawyers will be the only ones who end up profiting from this tragedy.

You are assuming they had any money to begin with. There was a reason they didn't invest in a properly rated viewing port and were using logitec game controllers. They were doing it on the ultra cheap. If nothing bad happened they would probably be upto their eyes in debt anyway.

 

[tridacna]

??

And here I was thinking that Nozzle Nuts, er, FFs, carried very high prezzure air in their SCBA tanks.

I think that he meant that most folks surmise that firefighters carry oxygen too. CMIIW.

 

[OMyMyOHellYes]

I think that he meant that most folks surmise that firefighters carry oxygen too. CMIIW.

That would be a vewy good thing to carry, strapped to your back, exhausting out the mask, into a flaming environment...

The general population gets a "D-" in most things they assume to be true....

 

[Dody]

I am a bit sad about all some of the comments and the blame, even from James Cameron who himself went to Challenger Deep (way deeper) with an experimental vessel that had less previous dives than Titan (28 people dove to the Titanic with Titan). Of course, the big difference is that he was only risking his own life and did not have 4 passengers who signed a waiver stating that dying was a possibility and that the company would hold no responsibility. I am not knowledgeable enough to judge the metal vs composite thing but as techniques evolve I would not be surprised to see reliable and safe carbon fiber hulls in a few years or decades. Anyway, I have watched a lot of videos of the pilot those last 4 days and I think that we should acknowledge a few things. He never said that the vessel was safe as a commercial airplane or even a standard submarine. He was a pioneer and as such he might have made some mistakes, taken some shortcuts, been a risk taker but he was a true explorer. It is wrong to say that he wanted to launch a tourist business. He built the sub for research and exploration purposes and taking paying passengers was a way to finance that. Someone said that only those who don’t do anything don’t make mistakes. Stockton Rush probably made some mistakes. Lethal mistakes. He brought four people in death with him. He is not the first explorer and won’t be the last to push the envelope. Some have gotten away with it and are celebrated. Others died or caused death. The guy was flawed but he was an explorer, not a criminal.