Tipping

[runsongas]

Feel free to not tip @CWK and claim it isn't in your culture. Others are free to judge you and your countrymen as cheap/stingy for paying upwards of 8k+ for a dive vacation and then complaining about a few hundred in tips.

 

[AdivingBel]

Others are free to judge you...

Sounds a wee bit arrogant...
How about instead of judging each other we enjoy our own diving

 

[Shasta_man]

<<Socialism>> ah yes, the latest buzzword bogeyman being used to scare the sheeple. Much easier to repeat continuously until they believe though than "they are going to raise your taxes!"

While the general assertion that 100K is not the average is true, there are certainly more than one waiter/waitress making serious cash in the big cities of this country because their tip is a % of high prices. I know a few. However, the associated cost of living is so high that it swallows that 100 grand plus you still have to commute in because you can't afford to live there. Current rent (not own which is worse) would be ~50% of your pay. Next year, more.

 

[CWK]

Feel free to not tip @CWK and claim it isn't in your culture. Others are free to judge you and your countrymen as cheap/stingy for paying upwards of 8k+ for a dive vacation and then complaining about a few hundred in tips.

I do not know if you are an alturistic socialist or a self-serving acaricious capitalist. Perhaps you are a capitalist masquerading as a socialist.

To me, a tip is very much discretionaruy - a voluntary gift of cash. There is nothing that the LOB can do if I choose not to leave a tip. I certainly do not need your approbation for what I do with my own money.

In a LOB setting, I would expect the captain to earn several times more than the hostess. LOB tips are usually pooled with all staff getting an equal share. An equal share of a LOB tip pool cannot serve as the primary means of remuneration. A share of the LOB tip pool that is sufficently large to be an appropriate wage for the captain would be an overly generous wage for the hostess. Similarly, a share of the tip pool that is appropriate as a wage for the hostess, would be totally inadequate for the captain. Therefore the American system of tipping waiters, where the tip serves as the wage, is totally inappropriate for LOBs. The tipping approach adopted by the rest of the world, where a tip is a norminal gift of cash in appreciation of service over and above expected standards is much more appropriate for LOBs.

I paid the LOB some $4,200 for my recent trip to Socorro. In addition to board, lodgingd and diving, tyhat money helped put food on the table for all the LOB staff for the duration of the trip, and it helped pay the wages for the staff for their work during that trip. Over and above this, I left a tip in accordance with the tipping guideling given by the boat. I see no reason to gift the LOB staff anything more than what the boat asked for. I fail to see any reason that the 10% tip, which you espouse, should be more appropriate in this situation when the boat has given a clear guideline on tipping.

I am quite comfortable in terms of material assets. As I enter my final phase of life, I am increasingly thinking of making gifts of cash to social causes that move me. Education for the poor, hospices that provide a dignified exit for the aged, assistance for the handicapped, and soup kitchens that feed those who are unable to feed themselves are social causes that I favour. The social cause that you promote, which I would characterise as improving the economic well being of LOB staff is not a social cause that I find particularly appealing. I do not know of a single registered charity that is dedicated to this cause. Please feel free to start a registered charity towards this end. In the interim, my perspective is that LOB personnel are adequately and appropriately remunerated for the work they perform. My focus for voulntary gifts of cash is to those whom I deem to have a greater need.

I have a biopsy scheduled next week. If it is malignant, I can only see my voluntary gifts of cash to social causes increasing. I have no heirs, so my estate will eventually go to charities of my choosing. I don't see LOB personnel being a beneficiary of my estate. I have no qualms making gifts of cash whilst I am alive. I rather like it. But, the beneficiaries of my gifts of cash are social causes with more pressing needs.

Thank you for embarking on name calling. To me, it shows that you have no valid argument to promote you chosen social cause. Resorting to 5th grade playground tactics does not advance your cause.

 

[ontdiver]

I have a biopsy scheduled next week.

I am sure that others join me in wishing you the best for next week.

 

[CWK]

I am sure that others join me in wishing you the best for next week.

Many thanks!

 

[runsongas]

I do not know if you are an alturistic socialist or a self-serving acaricious capitalist. Perhaps you are a capitalist masquerading as a socialist.

To me, a tip is very much discretionaruy - a voluntary gift of cash. There is nothing that the LOB can do if I choose not to leave a tip. I certainly do not need your approbation for what I do with my own money.

In a LOB setting, I would expect the captain to earn several times more than the hostess. LOB tips are usually pooled with all staff getting an equal share. An equal share of a LOB tip pool cannot serve as the primary means of remuneration. A share of the LOB tip pool that is sufficently large to be an appropriate wage for the captain would be an overly generous wage for the hostess. Similarly, a share of the tip pool that is appropriate as a wage for the hostess, would be totally inadequate for the captain. Therefore the American system of tipping waiters, where the tip serves as the wage, is totally inappropriate for LOBs. The tipping approach adopted by the rest of the world, where a tip is a norminal gift of cash in appreciation of service over and above expected standards is much more appropriate for LOBs.

I paid the LOB some $4,200 for my recent trip to Socorro. In addition to board, lodgingd and diving, tyhat money helped put food on the table for all the LOB staff for the duration of the trip, and it helped pay the wages for the staff for their work during that trip. Over and above this, I left a tip in accordance with the tipping guideling given by the boat. I see no reason to gift the LOB staff anything more than what the boat asked for. I fail to see any reason that the 10% tip, which you espouse, should be more appropriate in this situation when the boat has given a clear guideline on tipping.

I am quite comfortable in terms of material assets. As I enter my final phase of life, I am increasingly thinking of making gifts of cash to social causes that move me. Education for the poor, hospices that provide a dignified exit for the aged, assistance for the handicapped, and soup kitchens that feed those who are unable to feed themselves are social causes that I favour. The social cause that you promote, which I would characterise as improving the economic well being of LOB staff is not a social cause that I find particularly appealing. I do not know of a single registered charity that is dedicated to this cause. Please feel free to start a registered charity towards this end. In the interim, my perspective is that LOB personnel are adequately and appropriately remunerated for the work they perform. My focus for voulntary gifts of cash is to those whom I deem to have a greater need.

I have a biopsy scheduled next week. If it is malignant, I can only see my voluntary gifts of cash to social causes increasing. I have no heirs, so my estate will eventually go to charities of my choosing. I don't see LOB personnel being a beneficiary of my estate. I have no qualms making gifts of cash whilst I am alive. I rather like it. But, the beneficiaries of my gifts of cash are social causes with more pressing needs.

Thank you for embarking on name calling. To me, it shows that you have no valid argument to promote you chosen social cause. Resorting to 5th grade playground tactics does not advance your cause.

Clearly I hit a nerve that you went to ramble on for so long. Thanks for making assumptions about my political views.

I am pointing out that if tipping is widespread and expected, it is de jure compensation. I presented the alternative that liveaboards just charge a flat service fee, but that doesn't seem acceptable either to you.

People don't need charity if their jobs paid enough. Nobody is becoming rich in the dive industry just from some tips, but I see no problem if tips make the pay decent enough that the crew can conceivably raise a family, pay a mortgage, send their kids to school, etc based on it. Else, you will get poorly paid and inexperienced crew as the industry races to the bottom.

Good for you on donating your wealth, but maybe think also about the people that helped you get there in life.

 

[ontdiver]

"...but maybe think also about the people that helped you get there in life.

Hmm. I think that CWK knows those folks quite well and probably thinks about them every day.

 

[Scraps]

I understand all the arguments against setting wages based on expectations of tipping, and I acknowledge that several have merit.

The question is what to do about it if you think the system of tipping is wrong.

If you go to a restaurant or participate in an experience where tipping is the norm and then you don't tip, you're not doing anything to change the system you deplore. You're not striking a blow for fair wages. You're not punishing the meanie employer who doesn't pay a decent salary. And you're definitely not helping the employees exploited by the system.

You're simply paying less for the meal or experience than everyone else.

I'll award virtue points for forgoing the experience because one disapproves of the system, not for participating in the experience and then citing one's objections as a reason not to tip according to the norm.

 

[tfleming23]

Wow. Ok then, I didn't mean to or plan to start a political war spanning continents with this question, I simply was looking for a guide for what to tip next week.

Let's please all keep it at least pleasant, and CWK I wish you nothing but the best of luck, you will be in my thoughts as you go through this procedure