Tipping the boat crew - conventions around the world?

[Rogersea]

It never fails to amuse me how this particular topic always seems to evoke an emotional discussion.

I am an American and I was brought up in a tipping society. I usually tip for good service, but I do not allow some arbitrary formula or expectation determine the amount of the tip I leave.

I also do not generally tip if there a mandatory "service charge" applied since I am tipping for good service. In the states the "service charge is usually applied when your group exceeds a specific number and I understand it ensures the "crew" whether restaurant or some other crew get something(mandatory tip) for the effort. I dislike this custom and will not tip twice.

In regards to tipping "foreign" DM's or Instructors, I will tip them on the same scale I tip the locals. IMHO a foreign DM has made the choice to move to a distant land can not expect to be treated any different than a local guy or gal with whom he is competing, often under the table/illegally. Finally, being a DM or Instructor is not a real difficult profession and if someone enters into it expecting to make a wage similar to what they make in their home country(doing something else) they have not thought their decision through.

Cheers,
Roger

 

[Lorenzoid]

Did so both in Italy and in Mexico in Puerto Vallarta. Can't imagine insulting either one by not tipping them. The owner in Mexico pulled out his private stash of his home made moonshine for us. The owner in Italy had his mother come over to take our bags to the room we were renting from him. 80 steps up to the room and his mother was at least 80 years old. (we didn't allow her to carry the bags). Neither was insulted nor refused the tips.

That they weren't insulted (and by the way, how would you know how they *felt*?) and graciously accepted the tips may have meant little more than they recognized you for what you are: a tip-happy American. It's entirely possible that while they outwardly seemed gracious and happy to you, they kept their personal thoughts to themselves. Perhaps they perceived you as a bit naive or even crass.

In the Italy and Mexico situations you describe, I would have given them small gifts of appreciation at some point, not a cash tip. You and I obviously have very different views. I see handing cash to the owner or his 80 year-old mother as though they were service staff as a bit crass. When I rented a room for a month from a family in Central America, I took them out to dinner at the end of my stay, not handed them a wad of cash. I feel the same way in America, but as you know, we Americans couldn't care less about appearances or indelicateness--cash is cash and who of us could care less if it's a "tip" or just extra revenue for our business, since it goes into the same pocket. As I said in my previous post, in American mom-and-pop restaurants, I tip just as I would in any other American restaurant.

 

[theduckguru]

Did so both in Italy and in Mexico in Puerto Vallarta. Can't imagine insulting either one by not tipping them. The owner in Mexico pulled out his private stash of his home made moonshine for us. The owner in Italy had his mother come over to take our bags to the room we were renting from him. 80 steps up to the room and his mother was at least 80 years old. (we didn't allow her to carry the bags). Neither was insulted nor refused the tips.

After tipping a business owner, if he sent his 80 year old mother to pack my bags up 80 stairs, I would have been insulted. It seems apparent this was a breakdown in the message you were trying to communicate by offering a tip and the message recieved by the business owner. He might have felt obligated to provide a service he ordinarily did not provide or just wanted to spread all that love you were throwing around with his mother.

 

[Mike]

That they weren't insulted (and by the way, how would you know how they *felt*?) and graciously accepted the tips may have meant little more than they recognized you for what you are: a tip-happy American. It's entirely possible that while they outwardly seemed gracious and happy to you, they kept their personal thoughts to themselves. Perhaps they perceived you as a bit naive or even crass.

In the Italy and Mexico situations you describe, I would have given them small gifts of appreciation at some point, not a cash tip. You and I obviously have very different views. I see handing cash to the owner or his 80 year-old mother as though they were service staff as a bit crass. When I rented a room for a month from a family in Central America, I took them out to dinner at the end of my stay, not handed them a wad of cash. I feel the same way in America, but as you know, we Americans couldn't care less about appearances or indelicateness--cash is cash and who of us could care less if it's a "tip" or just extra revenue for our business, since it goes into the same pocket. As I said in my previous post, in American mom-and-pop restaurants, I tip just as I would in any other American restaurant.

LOL. They are service staff you boob. You've got a rose colored, pretend view of reality. You want to act like these people are living in a village with no running water, they sew their own cloths, don't wear shoes and barely make a living. They have a beautiful business, have WIFI, drive a brand new Fiat, down load music for Itunes, have fashionable beautiful Italian designer clothing, have patrons in their bar every night, a musician playing using electronics for a back up band, money changing hands over the bar hand over fist. Nobody is bringing them chickens or some carrots grown in their garden and trading for a glass of wine.

After tipping a business owner, if he sent his 80 year old mother to pack my bags up 80 stairs, I would have been insulted. At the least this was a breakdown in the message you were trying to communicate by offering a tip and the message recieved by the business owner.

I am not in the habit of insulting hard-working people in another culture. His 80 year old mother could out work you any day of the week and probably kick your ass if she wanted to. I don't judge another culture, I only vacation in it when there and adjust to it, it's not my place to try to change another countries culture. If there was any insult it was probably her feeling insulted when we wouldn't let her help with the bags.

This is the gist of everything I've said so far, you guys want to bring your countries culture and tipping norms to their country when as I've said a dozen times, When in Rome you do as the Romans do, you adjust to their local customs. When tipping, just because you don't tip in your country doesn't mean you follow not tipping in a culture that does and vise versa. This isn't a difficult concept. The only people who try to cop out with "We are Canadians (or fill in any country as an example that fits), we don't tip at home so why would we tip in another country" are cheap ass tourists that use that excuse to keep a buck in their pocket growing dust. Same thing with "How would I know how to tip in another country?" if you can't gather the proper amount of mental capacity to figure it out via all the information available today on any location in the world, then you should stay home, because tipping is going to be the least of your problems. If you can't figure out how to tip, how are you going to even navigate across a street without being ran over and killed.

If you two are cheap, just admit it and live with it, you don't need to spend time trying to come up with crazy justifications for being tight fisted, you are what you are, it's okay. I'm sure you've spent a life-time building a memorized list of rationalizations for reasons you can use that make you feel okay about stiffing somebody for a tip.

"Many people would like a reputation for being generous, but they just can't bare to part with the money it costs to buy it"

 

[theduckguru]

You should have let his mom lug the bags up the stairs then. The reason you didn't is because its not customary for Americans to have seniors work like that. Obviously your taking your customs with you.

 

[Mike]

You call it custom, I'll call it courtesy and respect for the elderly which is greatly respected and understood in Italy. It was a simple exchange between two people with a smile and a quiet "grazie madre" and taking her hand gently off the bags handle and replacing it with mine.

Try again

 

[Lorenzoid]

LOL. They are service staff you boob. You've got a rose colored, pretend view of reality. You want to act like these people are living in a village with no running water, they sew their own cloths, don't wear shoes and barely make a living. They have a beautiful business, have WIFI, drive a brand new Fiat, down load music for Itunes, have fashionable beautiful Italian designer clothing, have patrons in their bar every night, a musician playing using electronics for a back up band, money changing hands over the bar hand over fist. Nobody is bringing them chickens or some carrots grown in their garden and trading for a glass of wine.

What I meant is that they probably don't think of themselves as "service staff." They probably think of themselves as the owners who have to do all the work, but not as mere "service staff."

I don't see how the success or extent of the business is relevant to the issue of tipping the owners of the business. I have to believe they set the price of the room in accordance with what they expect to earn in total, not expecting any tip on top of that. If a tailor in Hong Kong who caters to the rich and famous makes me a suit, I pay the price he sets but do not add a tip. Does it matter if he has an opulent shop? As I said, if I felt the owners of a business did something special for me above and beyond ordinary service, I would give him a small gift as a token of appreciation, but not cash. It's not about the money in instances in which you're dealing with the owner alone--it's about showing gratitude. To bring this back more on topic, if it were a mom-and-pop dive operation I might try to buy some things in their shop that I otherwise wouldn't have (unless of course it's clear that American-style tipping is welcomed).

As for "When in Rome," you keep harping on that adage with which I very much agree, yet your anecdotes demonstrate that you don't follow the adage. I suspect that the average Italian who stays at the place in Italy you're referring to doesn't tip the owner for helping him with his bags. Ditto for Mexicans staying at the mom-and-pop place in Puerto Vallarta. I've spent quite a bit of time with some well-to-do Mexicans in Mexico, both in Mexico City and when we've gone to beach resorts together, and while there is a time for tipping I have seen that they don't hand out tips quite like we Americans tend to do. Rather, it is YOU who are importing your own cultural biases, since you come from a culture that hands tips out like candy. You are NOT "doing as the Romans do," though you may think you are. I'm not cheap--when I'm home in America I tip plenty. But when I'm abroad I don't import my cultural biases about tipping.

 

[Mike]

I don't recall describing myself walking down the streets of Italy showering euros upon everyone as if it was confetti streaming down during the Macy's parade.

 

[RJP]

LOL. They are service staff you boob.

Is this the right room for an argument?

[video=youtube;hnTmBjk-M0c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnTmBjk-M0c[/video]

 

[Lorenzoid]

I don't recall describing myself walking down the streets of Italy showering euros upon everyone as if it was confetti streaming down during the Macy's parade.

No, but you did say you tipped the owners of small hotels in Mexico and Italy who you thought went beyond the call of duty, which is something I'm doubtful your average Mexican or Italian guest would have done. You were trying to draw a parallel of some kind to tipping the owner of a dive operation who has no other staff helping him, which is a scenario someone brought up. Fair enough. The real difficulty, as I see it (other than you calling me a "boob") is that it's tricky to draw inferences about how to tip dive operators based on general tipping conventions in the region. Dive operators get all kinds of visitors from all over the world, and some get more of certain types of visitors than others--thrifty Scandinavians, rich Americans, gap year backpackers, etc. Dive ops also have employees who are more likely to have worked abroad or been exposed to people who have worked abroad (and brought back wonderful concepts like the Tip Box). Even the most local hole-in-the-wall dive op has seen international visitors, likely including Americans. I don't think what you and I or even the writers of general travel guides do when visiting hotels and restaurants (which often have service charges included on the bill) is all that instructive for trying to figure out what we should do when we visit a dive op in the same region. A dive op is sort of a different animal. As I said previously, in trying to figure out how to tip, I try to take the local general tipping customs into account as well as the fact that it's a dive operation and what the other guests are like. I just don't think there are any hard and fast rules that can be applied uniformly at every dive op everywhere in the world.