Three man buddy teams

[derwoodwithasherwood]

Disclaimer: I usually stick to lurking in these sorts of threads and I don't have any real experience in a 3-man team under water. However, this debate parallels current debate in the fire service and there are some interesting comparisons to be made.

A two man team offers the simplicity of tracking only one other person. In cases of impaired visibility, communications and sound keeping track of two others is more difficult, requiring a higher degree of awareness on the part of all 3 persons. Given the number of reported "bad buddies" who can't keep track of one other person, this skill level may well be beyond many recreational divers.

However, if two people are working on a task they tend to be pre-occupied with that task, and not on other surroundings. If the surroundings are potentially hazardous then the benefit to having a third person focused on those hazards and the safety of the other two outweighs the liabilities. In my experience, this means that the person with the greatest skill and experience is usually following, directing the others from a position where the whole picture can be readily observed. A side effect is that the others must keep an eye on the "leader" behind them for direction.

Some of the above posts make reference to all members sharing the same mindset. I think that is absolutely essential. While it is pretty much a given in firefighting (eg: a particular team is assigned to a particular task) it may not be the case in a tourist situation were there is no specific task or special hazards and each individual is just there to "look around". I have never done any penetration or other technical diving, but I suspect the circumstances were 3 man SCUBA teams are of value would be found in those disciplines more than rec diving. In those cases there is a focus or task to be accomplished, there are special hazards to be avoided, and the skill, experience and concentration of the individuals is above average.

I offer the following suggestion for discussion: Perhaps the person in charge of a 3 man team should "lead from behind" so the other two are always within his/her field of vision. Having been explained during the pre-dive briefing, the other two will know to continually look back at the leader for direction. In the event that one diver obviously forgot the briefing, the leader will detect any deviation immediately and take corrective action. Who knows, perhaps experiencing such a team approach may serve to improve some people's buddy skills too.

Any thoughts?

 

[novadiver]

If your mindset is 'ready to bail on the team at any moment' then you will never reap the benefits of the team approach. Just so we're clear, I am not criticizing solo diving. I know some very accomplished divers who only dive solo. After doing that for years myself, I prefer diving with a team that supports each other.

My suggestion to you is don't pretend to be a part of a team if you insist on being last so you can bail.

I never said I would bail on anyone, the third in line doesn't see anything , so it would make sense to leave a diver outside to start rescue if the two inside become entangled or even worse. Four bangs on the hull and I'm shooting a red bag and looking for a way to help the two divers that need it.

And as far as being third in line, I find it easier to keep an eye on other divers , It's not to bail.

You say a team member is there for support? How can they support you if they are dieing with you? I'll never "pretend to be part of the team"

Like I said , three diver teams , opens up new questions ,

BAIL on another diver ? damn that's uncalled for.

 

[novadiver]

Disclaimer: I usually stick to lurking in these sorts of threads and I don't have any real experience in a 3-man team under water. However, this debate parallels current debate in the fire service and there are some interesting comparisons to be made.

A two man team offers the simplicity of tracking only one other person. In cases of impaired visibility, communications and sound keeping track of two others is more difficult, requiring a higher degree of awareness on the part of all 3 persons. Given the number of reported "bad buddies" who can't keep track of one other person, this skill level may well be beyond many recreational divers.

However, if two people are working on a task they tend to be pre-occupied with that task, and not on other surroundings. If the surroundings are potentially hazardous then the benefit to having a third person focused on those hazards and the safety of the other two outweighs the liabilities. In my experience, this means that the person with the greatest skill and experience is usually following, directing the others from a position where the whole picture can be readily observed. A side effect is that the others must keep an eye on the "leader" behind them for direction.

Some of the above posts make reference to all members sharing the same mindset. I think that is absolutely essential. While it is pretty much a given in firefighting (eg: a particular team is assigned to a particular task) it may not be the case in a tourist situation were there is no specific task or special hazards and each individual is just there to "look around". I have never done any penetration or other technical diving, but I suspect the circumstances were 3 man SCUBA teams are of value would be found in those disciplines more than rec diving. In those cases there is a focus or task to be accomplished, there are special hazards to be avoided, and the skill, experience and concentration of the individuals is above average.

I offer the following suggestion for discussion: Perhaps the person in charge of a 3 man team should "lead from behind" so the other two are always within his/her field of vision. Having been explained during the pre-dive briefing, the other two will know to continually look back at the leader for direction. In the event that one diver obviously forgot the briefing, the leader will detect any deviation immediately and take corrective action. Who knows, perhaps experiencing such a team approach may serve to improve some people's buddy skills too.

Any thoughts?

You caught on pretty quick for the reason I would be third in line. It's all about awareness

 

[trob09]

I never said I would bail on anyone, the third in line doesn't see anything , so it would make sense to leave a diver outside to start rescue if the two inside become entangled or even worse. Four bangs on the hull and I'm shooting a red bag and looking for a way to help the two divers that need it.

And as far as being third in line, I find it easier to keep an eye on other divers , It's not to bail.

Fair enough, If I mis-interpreted, my apologies. But when I see things like:

When I'm diving in a group of three I make it known that I'm the solo third diver, They should dive like a buddy team and never look for me.

I say that you re not diving as a team. Perhaps your definition of teamwork is different from mine, no harm in that. My definition is that all divers are equal participants, not one diver babysitting others who are unable to look out for a third. If those are the teams you dive with, no wonder you look to be solo.

You say a team member is there for support? How can they support you if they are dieing with you?

Right back at you with the uncalled-for comment.

Like I said , three diver teams , opens up new questions ,

BAIL on another diver ? damn that's uncalled for.

New questions? absolutely.

 

[novadiver]

Fair enough, If I mis-interpreted, my apologies. But when I see things like:

I say that you re not diving as a team. Perhaps your definition of teamwork is different from mine, no harm in that. My definition is that all divers are equal participants, not one diver babysitting others who are unable to look out for a third. If those are the teams you dive with, no wonder you look to be solo.



Right back at you with the uncalled-for comment.




New questions? absolutely.

In a perfect world, all divers would be equal participants, but in the real world, team divers do the job that's best for the team, If that means hanging back for support, then that diver hangs back. If your the diver running the line, then you run the line tight with no line traps.Because that's your job. me putting divers in front is what I do (untill I can trust those divers not to bolt ) IMHO the third diver in any team should have the job of rescue. that's all he should think about , and the team should respect the diver whos job it is to bring them back. That's TEAM diving. Doing what's best for the team.

If I get on a boat and the DM points at two other divers and says" that's the buddies your diving with" . I'll look at them , their gear , their attitude, and most likely put them in front. Other than that , I would prefer to dive solo,

Now on the other hand, If you have been diving a three diver team for years , That is obviously the best plan for you and the team. everyone knows the other diver , and how they react. everyone knows their job, and how to get it done. This is team diving, not getting on a boat and expecting the other divers to be equal participants. That comes under a "trust me "dive , and even thou I do TRUST ME , I don't trust anyone else. That comes from experience.

My apology for the " uncalled for comment" it was nothing personal

 

[Dan Gibson]

This is the real key to the team. It takes time to get used to a new member on a team. You can take very good divers and still have problems as a team if you don't work well together.

Three-person teams would work just fine for divers used to working with one another.

 

[novadiver]

This is the real key to the team. It takes time to get used to a new member on a team. You can take very good divers and still have problems as a team if you don't work well together.

Good point dan, were would you place a new member of a three diver team? in front running the line ?( so you can check out this divers line running skill ). in the middle ? or in the rear ? all of these positions have ramifications on the safety of the team and the end goal of the team.

It does take some thought , doesn't it ?

 

[Dan Gibson]

It wouldn't really matter too much since the first few dives would be easy ones.

Given a choice, it would depend on who is most familiar with the environment. In a system new to the new member, I would probably have the new diver run the real while number two (who knows that system) watched the placements and helped this diver pick good points by shinning his light on the appropriate spots. Of course we would have described this to the diver in a predive breifing. It really could very from dive to dive.

The only thing for sure is that it takes time to bring a new member up to speed with the rest of the team.

Good point dan, were would you place a new member of a three diver team? in front running the line ?( so you can check out this divers line running skill ). in the middle ? or in the rear ? all of these positions have ramifications on the safety of the team and the end goal of the team.

It does take some thought , doesn't it ?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I can't speak for technical diving ... but for basic recreational diving, a 3-person buddy team requires all three divers have the following:
- a common goal
- a willingness to adapt
- basic awareness skills

Everything else can be worked out with planning and communication.

By a common goal, I mean that there are types of diving and types of divers that are essentially incompatible in any kind of buddy team. In a basic two-person team, if one diver is a "zoomer" who enjoys covering territory, while the other is a "seeker" who enjoys poking around looking into every nook and cranny, they will have a tense dive. Adding a third diver to this dynamic makes for an unmanageable situation. You have to establish beforehand how the dive will be run, at what pace, who will lead the dive, and how the other team members will follow. This needs to be planned in advance, and the "formation" that works best will depend on the dive topography.

A willingness to adapt means that with a 3-person buddy team it's even more important to constantly evaluate the dynamics of the dive as it progresses, and adapt your own style to best fit what's going on with the team. If one diver appears to be having trouble keeping pace, slow down. If one diver seems to be showing signs of narcosis ... or experiencing buoyancy control issues ... consider modifying the dive plan to go shallower.

Basic awareness skills mean just that ... make the effort to watch each other. If the first two conditions are met, it's not particularly difficult. Make sure if you want to change direction that you get the other divers attention and signal your intent ... don't just head off to something interesting you noticed and assume they will follow.

FWIW - at our Orca Bait dive last week-end, I had a great third dive as a three-person buddy team with two relatively new divers. We discussed our plan, stuck to it, and stayed together throughout the dive without much effort at all.

For most recreational diving, a three-person team isn't any more difficult than a two person team ... it's simply a matter of planning, communication, and attitude.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[BigboyDan]

Three-man diving is WRONG. If you can't figure out why, feel free to re-read your OW textbook.