three divers rescued in the St Lawrence

[USVet96]

I know ALOT has been mentioned about the health of divers and the requirement to stay in "dive shape.". And while I agree 100% that you need to be able to not only do the dive safely, physically, but you ALSO need to be able physically to help an unresponsive diver, and to address a situation should it happen. That means being in shape enough to tow a weighted diver to the surface, safely (or some other method required), and the training to do so. Either through ditching weights, gear, etc. You know what I'm getting at.

However, being in "dive shape" is NOT a "specific shape" of an individual. Im just saying that I know plenty of "bigger" people that can do a TON of rucking with heavy packs, carry other men over distance, pull a house, etc. They may not "look" like Mr. Olympia but their bodies are conditioned for the activity they do most.

It's sad truly about what happened and my condolences go out. Thank You to the other divers who DID NOT just leave their buddy to perish, and who tried with full effort to SAVE him, without regard to their OWN safety. That takes courage and proper training to NOT panic in an emergency situation, and they did NOT.

Can't say enough about their efforts, as well as that of the Coast Guard. Thank You.

 

[Stoo]

Thank You to the other divers who DID NOT just leave their buddy to perish, and who tried with full effort to SAVE him, without regard to their OWN safety. That takes courage and proper training to NOT panic in an emergency situation, and they did NOT.

I've exchanged a couple of emails with one of them and he is totally dismissing his role. At the time I was sitting with my regular buddy (who is much closer to this chap than I am) and we pretty much decided that neither of us would have bothered to try to save the other... unless the other was wearing some spiffy new gear...

Anyway, my point is, that this "hero" is the best kind... The kind that just takes it in stride.

 

[devildoc5]

Is there a chance of convincing this person to give his account on this thread so we might gain some more insight into what happened/chronology of events?

I think this might be beneficial to all as not only a means of evaluating what happened, but also (depending on the situation that occurred) an opportunity to remind our selves to look for the earlier signs of stress before it gets out of hand and results in an emergency.

 

[Warren_L]

The Ontario Underwater Council publishes incident reports going back around 20 years.

Year: fatalities
2011: 4
2010: 1
2009: 0
2008: 3
2007: 4
2006: 4
2005: 4
2004: 4

It seems that 2009 and 2010 were actually good years. Looking at the incident reports some of the past deaths were people totally ignoring proper dive training (possible not even certified). This year the deaths have all been certified divers and in most cases active members of the community.

Some guy gets some scuba gear and tries to retrieve his pickup truck from the bottom of a river isn't going to hit home with people who frequent ScubaBoard. A certified diver who has been diving with people who frequent ScubaBoard will stand out a lot more. I think this year, there aren't an unusually high number of fatalities but there are more people we we know this year than in the past.

The impression that there are a higher number of fatalities here in Ontario probably stems from the fact that we had a couple of years almost without incident, then 4 within a relatively short period of time, even though the number of incidents this year are really fairly average.

 

[DandyDon]

Is there a chance of convincing this person to give his account on this thread so we might gain some more insight into what happened/chronology of events?

I think this might be beneficial to all as not only a means of evaluating what happened, but also (depending on the situation that occurred) an opportunity to remind our selves to look for the earlier signs of stress before it gets out of hand and results in an emergency.

I'm confident that the surviving divers did as much as they could to try to give the stricken diver his best chances at possible survival, getting him up and to rescue as early as possible. As I mentioned earlier, it sounds like one skipped deco obligations for a direct ascent and the other stayed below to do some deco at least, then ascend with more likelihood of still being fit & able should the first two both need help - and I have to wonder which would be scarier...?

Ignoring deco obligations, coming up with the unconscious diver in hopes that nothing else goes badly, hoping he can find help at the surface, hoping he doesn't take a horrible hit, etc.

Or being the one who stays below alone to enhance his chances of being helpful later, watching his deco countdown alone, later ascending alone, not knowing what's happening above, hoping for the best as he waits and then when he surfaces?​

Both positions pretty challenging I bet, both with increased risks, and then you got to hope that you don't look bad to anyone, don't get criticized by news reports or public discussions like this, don't have to defend yourself in court, and so forth. It'd all be pretty sad and stressful so it'd probably be wise to avoid making public statements for a long time. Sure the news said it was cardiac but who knows what someone may think otherwise. I got to wonder what my lawyer would advise but then I really wouldn't want to mess with meeting with him - altho I would, and here we also have an international border involved, things to deal with in both countries, all in all the more reason to keep quiet I think, for now. It sounds like both surviving divers were pretty heroic to me but you just never know what others are going to make of it?

 

[Warren_L]

The two divers that rescued the deceased are both friends of mine, are both very experienced divers, and I can tell you that they did what they felt was best. When they surfaced, they were able to signal the coast guard (the coast guard station is right next to the dive site) who happened to have some boats in the area already.

 

[devildoc5]

Don I agree that from the information available at this point in time both divers seemed to work well as an emergency response team.

That being said there is something to be said for learning from first hand accounts and supposition from 3rd or 4th hand accounts.

I personally dont know how myself and my normal dive buddy would react to a situation like this, except to say that we would both be willing to POSSIBLY skip a little deco time depending on the seriousness.

Again however I am not incredibly interested in the outcome as the outcome appears to be as good as possible given the circumstances. I myself am more concerned with discovering HOW it came to the situation it did. Then dissecting that and discovering if there is something that we can all take away from this incident that will make us safer divers/better buddies.

Having been in the medical community I can assure you that "cardiac arrest" can result from a number of things. Cardiac arrest is not always just the typical MI, a lot of times respiratory failure can be perceived as a cardiac arrest. The fact that the cause of death is listed as "cardiac arrest" does not mean that the diver necessarily had a heart attack underwater.

I am not trying to speculate on possible other cause or contributing factors to "cardiac arrest" however it would be beneficial if we could get at least a chronology of events to help us determine if this was a presurfacing situation that was exacerbated by the rapid ascent or if it was a completely submerged situation that was already done and over with by the time the divers broke the surface or even was the stressed diver still alive and more or less well on the ride to the hospital/boat/surface?

Unfortunately these are questions that should be answered in EVERY diving mishap, whether a death occurred, hospitalization, or it was a near miss. I understand that sometimes this is not possible due to there being no one left who witnessed the accident who is still capable of typing. However when there are survivors their stories and observations should be encouraged in order to make the industry safer, not hidden away in fear of little suit wearing boogiemen coming and taking all your hard earned money and your precious dog too....

 

[TSandM]

I can't remember where I saw it (maybe earlier in the thread?) but apparently the autopsy commented on the deceased diver having extensive atherosclerosis, and having had an MI. If this is the case, and I have no reason to question it, then there is really nothing to be learned from this incident, except that you can have an MI at age 39, and that people doing staged decompression diving need to have thought about what they are going to do if a buddy requires urgent transport to the surface, despite the deco obligation.

 

[devildoc5]

I can't remember where I saw it (maybe earlier in the thread?) but apparently the autopsy commented on the deceased diver having extensive atherosclerosis, and having had an MI. If this is the case, and I have no reason to question it, then there is really nothing to be learned from this incident, except that you can have an MI at age 39, and that people doing staged decompression diving need to have thought about what they are going to do if a buddy requires urgent transport to the surface, despite the deco obligation.

Perchance I missed that part. I do remember "cardiac arrest"which in my opinion is quickly becoming the catch all for deaths. (obviously the cardiac muscle will cease functioning at some point of the death phase)

That being said if there is actual evidence to back up an MI then you would be correct, there is not much to be learned here. However as I stated I tend to e skeptical as most ER docs I have worked with have pointed out that "the 23 yr old drowning victim that came in died of cardiac arrest." When I questioned him as to how this was possible he stated "CPR was keeping his heart going, when we stopped CPR his heart stopped and he went into cardiac arrest."

That is but one of many reasons why the cardiac arrest thing seems a little fishy to me. Not saying it isnt true but that would be like saying someone that died in a car accident died from excessive exposure to gasoline and petroleum based products....

 

[DandyDon]

Well, DevilDoc - I suppose we'll just have to wait for the dust to settle as there are several entities who could question the planning and execution of the dive, any of which could cause problems for the heroic survivors. We've seen all too many cases where divers have been sued and even prosecuted in both countries, and we know all too well that family members, attorneys and others read out threads, with news stories misquoting us here.

I've seen several divers leave by ambulance over my decade of diving, two from my group who barely survived - one who had been my buddy on a previous dive, and one who had been in my group of four, in other countries. If either of them had been injured while I was with them and not made it, I have to hope that I would say as little as possible until I spoke with the American consulate, a local lawyer, and my home lawyer all three - and I bet all three would tell me to keep quiet, especially in printed records. (I saw my home lawyer at a big meeting yesterday, him at another group's desk, and I was really happy that he and his group was mostly on the same side as ours.)

I think the lessons to be learned here are pretty obvious...

Make sure we are physically fit and healthy enough for the planned dive.

Make sure we are trained and equipped for the dive, then follow our training and ensure the gear is good to go.

And when caca hits the fan, do the best you can for the emergency, followed by keeping quiet.​

I can't say how much deco either diver skipped, but I doubt that the one who came up later even finished. Both positions would have been scary - coming up with the unconscious diver hoping I could still be able to walk at the end of the day, or staying below alone hoping.