Thoughts on whole dive group surfacing when one of the group reaches 1000psi

[AfterDark]

Olympus Dive Center in NC has signs in their shop and on their boats that read to the efffect that each diver is responsible for their safety. Once they know you know what you're doing they let you dive!
They are one of a handful of OPs that I use for this reason as well as their safety measures of mulitple roll calls that assure nobody gets left behind at the dock or at the site. The owner/Captain grew up diving all the wrecks off shore and knows them all very well. There is no reason an OP can't let divers dive and still be a safe operation. You'll never see me fault an OP unless it clearly is a laspe on an OPs part. There are no good reasons for leaving divers behind in the water and not knowing it until the boat docks. If some diver wanders off and gets dead it's his/he fault not the OPs.

 

[Doubler]

They do live drifts with groups of 24 everyday in Jupter.

 

[Tunaman68]

We certainly didn't all come up together in current in Cozumel this January. As people ran low on air the DM sent up a buoy and the low air people followed it up and did their safety stops on the buoy line. Everybody stayed in the same part of the ocean and the boat followed the buoy.

I understand - having logged dozens of dives in Coz and being comfortable coming up when ready, shooting a bag and hanging a stop in open water it seems logical that this should also be OK in Maui. In fact, when we dive Molokini back wall with ProDiver out of Kihei (an 8 pac boat), that's exactly what we do.

Reading many of the posts on the Coz forum, it seems that the larger cattle boat ops in Coz are often criticized for this same issue and one of the big questions is 'can I dive my tank'. So even in an area where flexible profiles and SMB use is prevalent, it is not always allowed.

I was simply suggesting that the LD boats have a larger number of divers with vastly different skills, and the use of an SMB is neither explained or expected so perhaps allowing people to come and go as they please could be problematic. In fact, I asked if deploying my SMB from the safety stop at Molokai was ok and the DM seemed surprised that I could do that without getting yanked to the surface. (this was the first dive where the DM took the air hogs to the boat and let us come up as our air allowed)

On the boats in California, there isn't even a DM in the water - they point you at the site and say basically 'don't get killed' even when diving the oil rigs with a live boat in open water!

None of this negates the fact that if you were told you could dive your tank but got yanked at less than 30 minutes you got ripped!

---------- Post added June 20th, 2013 at 09:20 PM ----------

They do live drifts with groups of 24 everyday in Jupter.

And they do decompression and rebreather diving every day in Chuuk - Maui and Lahaina divers isn't either one of these.....it's not that they couldn't, it's that they usually don't. Sorry if that seems trollish....

 

[Scared Silly]

We had to deal with this issue once. The DM gave the briefing and mentioned at about the 45 minute we would be coming up. I spoke up and said we (3 of us) were good on air and that an hour would be more reasonable. He said okay we would check when it got to the 45 minute mark and go from there. At 45 minutes we all still had 1000psi or so. We thought well and good. But at 50 minutes he wanted to go up. We stretched for a few more minutes. The same happened on the second dive. Except we just the DM go up and we continued on for another 10 minutes then did our safety stop.


Between that and other issues no tip was left - and the owner got an ear full.

 

[Jai Bar]

It is all about matching expectations...

First, one has to remember any dive op gets plenty of divers who boast to be Cousteau's incarnation or showing off experience better than Poseidon himself. Then they hit the water and show the poorest diving skills. The diving operator and/or its dm/guides/instructors in most cases cannot know your skills beforehand. So, one has to earn their trust- now the operator is the "customer" and you need to sell him your skills, so he can trust you and buy your "merchandise" (the wanting to dive without group policy enforcement, yes?)- like you'd normally do with any customer.

So first, you try to dive with operators that already know you. But since one can never know whether he is going back to the same place again, you behave like you WOULD. You build and establish a good relationship, based on trust and in our case- practicing good scuba skills.

Upon booking, I let know the operator about my wife and mine own diving skills something like we are both experienced instructors that really like to take our time, taking photos and that we prefer no hassling. But as I said, I know he cannot really know who and what we are, so I don't expect much at this stage.

When we arrive, we introduce ourselves, speak with the guide. We repeat the bla bla. Suppose it's a liveaboard, we actually want the guide to be relieved and have to focus his attention on a smaller group, maybe with less experienced divers, so in the end it will be better for him. You don't tell him that- he will notice by himself after the first dive, or actually before- one can learn a lot about a diver from watching how he arranges his gear (doesn't matter what shiny reg brand or sophisticated computer).

So you arrange the gear with confidence, make an exemplary check dive with the rest of the group. Let him and group see that you're a different quality of diver- and if you really are- you won't.be hassled.

Do not show off, don't boast between dives, just be a professional diver.

Then in briefing for next dive you listen carefully and learn the dive site. After briefing, you grab the guide and brief him about your dive.... You let him know that you are considerate, and if conditions allow you'll take your time. If the boat must lift anchor, or the rendezvous with zodiac is problematic etc- you keep in pace with the group. Remember- you want him to know you're making his job easier, so some dives won't be more than 60 minutes, but many are going to be 90 (my preferred dive time) or more...

You dive professionally, no bumping to depths the guide isn't comfortable, no sucking tasks dry, for example. You know the site better than group because you did your home work between dives, always checking also what's next so you can plan your "extended" dive, or maybe arrange dropping with first group, being picked up with the last, and so on.

If it's a drift dive with rough seas and difficult pick up, it's okay to keep with the group, otherwise it makes times harder for guide and rubber boat drivers.

Anyway, if you are okay then you'll get the freedom to dive it your way. And, if that indeed happened, don't forget to tip generously- remember- you never know maybe next year you'll be coming back..Then you'll be received with open arms, and nobody will question you about group policy...


Sent from my myTouch 4G

 

[Tigerman]

...
Do not show off, don't boast between dives, just be a professional diver.
...

What you describe in most of your post can easilly come across as just that.. Especially all your "were experienced instructors" blabla..

 

[gekodivebali]

How many divers were diving with the op's group?
If it's something stupid like 6 or more, then the 1000 psi rule makes no sense. If it's more sensible, like 2 to 4, then I don't see why going up all together should be a problem, especially when divers are grouped by experience level on dives which could be hazardous to those unfamiliar with the dive site.

 

[Jai Bar]

What you describe in most of your post can easilly come across as just that.. Especially all your "were experienced instructors" blabla..

Exactly that, you could be possibly right, maybe. Perhaps the occasional operator also thinks the same. A couple of weeks ago we traveled to a country in which they claimed guided dives are mandatory. We took daily boat dives and a few days shore dives.

After the first dive from boat, the guide was happy having us far away closing the group, then let us dive by ourselves while the boat was anchoring and the group at lunch.

By the time we got to the shore dives he just accompanied us to the dive site entrance and was happy to get paid with no splash.

But that's not what I meant about boasting anyway. You miss the point- you don't need to talk about how experienced you are, it will just show in the way you behave before, during and after the dive.

Sent from my myTouch 4G

 

[redacted]

Ironic that when these operations eventually lose divers, they're immediately blamed as incompetent, dangerous operators who should never have been issued a license. Does anyone else see this pendulum swing on SB? When operators impose rules, they're facist... when no rules are enforced, they're incompetent and unsafe..

Not the case at all. A dive op can and should make all the rule it needs to operate. But make them up front, at the time of booking, not on the boat ride to the dive site. A dive op is not free to change the contract (rules) after it has accepted payment. If a dive op chooses to cater to entry level divers and apply those rules to all customers, that is fine. Just make it up front so experienced divers who are not looking for that kind of op can see what is going on and look elsewhere.

---------- Post added June 21st, 2013 at 08:49 AM ----------

First, one has to remember any dive op gets plenty of divers who boast to be Cousteau's incarnation or showing off experience better than Poseidon himself. Then they hit the water and show the poorest diving skills. The diving operator and/or its dm/guides/instructors in most cases cannot know your skills beforehand. So, one has to earn their trust- now the operator is the "customer" and you need to sell him your skills, so he can trust you and buy your "merchandise" (the wanting to dive without group policy enforcement, yes?)- like you'd normally do with any customer.

How much does the diver charge the "customer" for this service?

Sure, good dive ops need to be able to deal with divers who are not up to the dives offered. But if they can only do this at the expense of capable divers, then they are lacking in their policies and procedures.

So, what dive op do you work for?

 

[AfterDark]

It is all about matching expectations...

First, one has to remember any dive op gets plenty of divers who boast to be Cousteau's incarnation or showing off experience better than Poseidon himself. Then they hit the water and show the poorest diving skills. The diving operator and/or its dm/guides/instructors in most cases cannot know your skills beforehand. So, one has to earn their trust- now the operator is the "customer" and you need to sell him your skills, so he can trust you and buy your "merchandise" (the wanting to dive without group policy enforcement, yes?)- like you'd normally do with any customer.

So first, you try to dive with operators that already know you. But since one can never know whether he is going back to the same place again, you behave like you WOULD. You build and establish a good relationship, based on trust and in our case- practicing good scuba skills.

Upon booking, I let know the operator about my wife and mine own diving skills something like we are both experienced instructors that really like to take our time, taking photos and that we prefer no hassling. But as I said, I know he cannot really know who and what we are, so I don't expect much at this stage.

When we arrive, we introduce ourselves, speak with the guide. We repeat the bla bla. Suppose it's a liveaboard, we actually want the guide to be relieved and have to focus his attention on a smaller group, maybe with less experienced divers, so in the end it will be better for him. You don't tell him that- he will notice by himself after the first dive, or actually before- one can learn a lot about a diver from watching how he arranges his gear (doesn't matter what shiny reg brand or sophisticated computer).

So you arrange the gear with confidence, make an exemplary check dive with the rest of the group. Let him and group see that you're a different quality of diver- and if you really are- you won't.be hassled.

Do not show off, don't boast between dives, just be a professional diver.

Then in briefing for next dive you listen carefully and learn the dive site. After briefing, you grab the guide and brief him about your dive.... You let him know that you are considerate, and if conditions allow you'll take your time. If the boat must lift anchor, or the rendezvous with zodiac is problematic etc- you keep in pace with the group. Remember- you want him to know you're making his job easier, so some dives won't be more than 60 minutes, but many are going to be 90 (my preferred dive time) or more...

You dive professionally, no bumping to depths the guide isn't comfortable, no sucking tasks dry, for example. You know the site better than group because you did your home work between dives, always checking also what's next so you can plan your "extended" dive, or maybe arrange dropping with first group, being picked up with the last, and so on.

If it's a drift dive with rough seas and difficult pick up, it's okay to keep with the group, otherwise it makes times harder for guide and rubber boat drivers.

Anyway, if you are okay then you'll get the freedom to dive it your way. And, if that indeed happened, don't forget to tip generously- remember- you never know maybe next year you'll be coming back..Then you'll be received with open arms, and nobody will question you about group policy...


Sent from my myTouch 4G

Have you ever seen film of Cousteau diving? Lot of hand use.