The usefulness of deco training without trimix

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Yes and no. Helium can be extremely useful if you are "working" underwater. You really become aware of just how "clumsy" you can be, even at 100', when you are task loaded and not just swimming around looking at things. 18/45 was an eye opener for me.
 
...helium was really the least important part of the course.

Interesting observation. "Task loading" isn't recognized enough in the rec world IMHO. I am just back from a trip to BC... amazing diving, but very strong currents which are tricky to manage if you aren't used to them. Several people in my group were in that inexperienced category, although capable divers here in the Great Lakes. ON our first evening, as they were licking their wounded prides, our host suggested they leave their little P&S cameras behind for a couple of dives. What a difference... Being able to concentrate on one thing at a time until it's mastered is critical...
 
Yes and no. Helium can be extremely useful if you are "working" underwater. You really become aware of just how "clumsy" you can be, even at 100', when you are task loaded and not just swimming around looking at things. 18/45 was an eye opener for me.

True 'nuff. Although as someone who does a lot of diving in the same place, deeper air allows me to dive the same 150' wreck over and over and still be able to surface and say stuff like... "Cool... I never saw that before!!!" :)
 
PADI Tec 45 is the direct equivalent of TDI AN/DP. It also has no limit on deco time, AFAIK. When you say "most", what ones are you talking about? PADI Tec 40 does have a time limit, I think. I think it also limits you to a max of 50% on your deco gas. I would not count that as anything like equivalent to Adv Nitrox.
That is all correct. PADI Tec 40 limits you to a depth of 130 feet and 10 minutes of deco with no more than 50%. Tec 45 has no limit on deco time and no limit on the oxygen percentage.

The PADI Tec 40/45/50 sequence and the TDI Intro/AN/DP sequence have some similarities at different points, but the courses are structured differently. If you were to do the TDI sequence in order, you would not begin learning any decompression until you reached the third class; with PADI you start that right away. With PADI, the advanced nitrox training, the decompression theory training, and all the skill training is blended into the program throughout the sequence rather than segregated into different courses. With TDI, most people do not take the courses in sequence because it makes sense to integrate that learning. When I was teaching TDI, I never taught AN and DP as two separate courses for that reason. The required AN dives are borderline silly without including decompression.

As I discovered, there is a lot more to trimix than just adding helium to manage narcosis. In fact, in my experience, helium was really the least important part of the course. The real value I got from my trimix course was additional planning, managing two stages AND doing that with additional task loading and handling multiple simultaneous failures with your team.
With the PADI trimix course, a lot of the training deals with the fact that you are going to be going much deeper. In the Tec 50 class, you learn to use two deco bottles. In the first dive of the trimix class that follows, you practice working with 4 deco/stage bottles. You also work on shooting bags from very deep.

The class is changing with the times, too. A big part of the trimix class as written is planning dive profiles using deep stops. PADI has officially told instructors that this is no longer a required part of the course as a result of recent research regarding deep stops.
 
And what makes the dive I described a "normoxic plus dive"? My max depth was pretty much exactly at the limits of normal sport diving. I couldn't see any need at all for trimix (though I understand some folks would also use trimix deeper than 100').

TDI AN/DP standards require training for use of 1 deco gas, but they do not limit the training. The instructor can train for multiple deco gases if he or she wants to. My instructor only trains for 1 deco gas at the AN/DP/Helitrox level. He trains for 2 when you move up to TDI Trimix. Thus, my training is only for 1 deco cylinder and that is why I only used 1 deco gas on that particular dive.

However, my instructor has now taught me the procedure for using 2 deco gases and I'm starting to practice with 2 cylinders in the water. I will not be in violation of my TDI certification limits when I am ready and start to use 2 deco gases, even if I have not completed TDI Trimix at that point.

Heya Stuart. I'm sorry my mistake caused the misunderstanding. Since within GUE there is nothing between rec diving and trimix. Your AN/DP dives are within GUE trimix dives. That's why I was referring to normoxic dives... not from point of depth, but from a point of deco time, ascend and stage management... within my background as a GUE diver.

So skip the Trimix stuff (as in the gas you breath, not the class because depending on agency a normoxic and certainly a full trimix class is about much more than just the simple He in your gas mix).

What I'm trying to point out is that from my perspective irregardless of depth and what gas you breath a 45-50 min deco time dive is from deco perspective already a bigger dive. Certainly if that deco obligation comes from a relatively speaking shallow dive (slow tissues). From my perspective from gas management and deco gas management point it's from gas logistics point of view no longer a 1 stage dive. My gas consumption is reasonable but I would need without thinking about min gas almost a full double 80cft set to make that dive... on deco if you account for a lost deco gas scenario (so deco reserves for your buddy) you are cutting it quite slim for that kind of deco time on 1 deco stage.

So while I obviously don't know all the details of your dive... I don't think it's a great example to make because more prudent divers would probably calculate that dive as a multi stage dive, which is definitely not TDI AN/DP curriculum. *

PS: I did a TDI AN class in 2006, and at least at that time it definitely was limited deco on a deco gas (remember 15 minutes of accelerated deco).
 
True 'nuff. Although as someone who does a lot of diving in the same place, deeper air allows me to dive the same 150' wreck over and over and still be able to surface and say stuff like... "Cool... I never saw that before!!!" :)

You should try it... although you might not like the result. Before I started the GUE curriculum I did my share of deeper air dives (almost getting myself killed which in a sense pushed me towards GUE)... funny enough some of the deepish wrecks (150-170ft range) that I dove on air I revisited on trimix later.

Some of these wrecks which in my memory were very very nice, with subtle elements, parts almost pristine... looked very broken down once I dove them on trimix. it's like your field of view opens up from 60° to 120° and I suddenly saw the wreck in it's bigger picture instead of just small pieces of it that I could remember.
 
PS: I did a TDI AN class in 2006, and at least at that time it definitely was limited deco on a deco gas (remember 15 minutes of accelerated deco).
I don't have the course materials and standards from that era, but I think that AN as a stand alone course did not include ANY decompression in the course.

It is hard to say what your experience was, though. I took AN and DP at about that time myself, but I never had any idea what the course standards were. The course materials don't tell you what the standards are, and our instructor was certainly not going to tell us. He did tell us that although we would have to complete the written exams on the course materials, the course itself was going to ignore the TDI curriculum and standards completely. We were going to follow the standards for GUE Tech I instead. It was not until I became a TDI instructor myself and saw the (updated) course standards that I saw how different the course as written was from the course I took. (I also know he was not following the GUE standards, either.) I was peeved enough at not getting a certification card when I thought I deserved one that I contacted TDI, told them what we were doing, and asked about the standards. They responded by telling me that TDI instructors are allowed to go as far outside of standards as they wished, as long as the standards are met.

So, your instructor in 2006 was then (and would be today) completely free to add whatever he or she wanted to the class.
 
Yes and no. Helium can be extremely useful if you are "working" underwater. You really become aware of just how "clumsy" you can be, even at 100', when you are task loaded and not just swimming around looking at things. 18/45 was an eye opener for me.

No question on the usefulness of helium. For me, I just felt like the additional in-water skills training was more valuable than learning to calculate ENDs.
 
You should try it... although you might not like the result.

Been there done that... as an ongoing matter, it isn't worth the cost or inconvenience since about 75% of the time, we decide what we're diving when we are at the site. Air is mighty flexible in that regard.

I also have the advantage being a photographer... Like a good tourist, I can look at my pics later to see what I missed.

My general rule is that if I'm staring at the back at my housing and all I can think is "SO. MANY. BUTTONS". that I probably shoulda used a touch of He... ;-)
 
If you were to do the TDI sequence in order, you would not begin learning any decompression until you reached the third class; with PADI you start that right away.

That seems a bit disingenuous. Intro is not a prerequisite to anything. And, as you yourself observed later, AN and DP are pretty much always taught together. When I took it, Intro was also included as part of the same class. So, in real life, if you go with TDI, you not only start learning about deco in the first class, you are certified for unlimited deco, 100% O2, and 45m/150' depth after that first class.

And, in fact, you can include Helitrox in that class as well(*). I.e. one class that nets you Intro, AN, DP, and Helitrox. So, after your first class you can do unlimited deco, use 100% O2, AND use up to 20% Helium, with a max depth of 45m/150'. My read of the standards is that the required # of dives (6) is the same, whether it's only AN/DP or all 4 things combined. So it is legitimately just one class, too. Not multiple classes simply taught serially.

*as long as you have Nitrox, Advanced with Deep specialty, and 50 dives.

From my perspective from gas management and deco gas management point it's from gas logistics point of view no longer a 1 stage dive. My gas consumption is reasonable but I would need without thinking about min gas almost a full double 80cft set to make that dive... on deco if you account for a lost deco gas scenario (so deco reserves for your buddy) you are cutting it quite slim for that kind of deco time on 1 deco stage.

So while I obviously don't know all the details of your dive... I don't think it's a great example to make because more prudent divers would probably calculate that dive as a multi stage dive, which is definitely not TDI AN/DP curriculum. *

PS: I did a TDI AN class in 2006, and at least at that time it definitely was limited deco on a deco gas (remember 15 minutes of accelerated deco).

For the record, that dive was me with double 120s and my buddy with double 100s. So, ample back gas. We each had an AL80 of EAN80 for deco. Per our training (my buddy was trained by the same instructor as I was), we planned our deco gas using conservative SAC rates and such that each of us needed well less than half the cylinder of deco gas we were carrying. So, if I lost my deco gas, he would share his and vice versa. We both felt like we were being reasonably conservative (no, not super conservative - we didn't feel like the anticipated dive conditions warranted being super conservative - warm water, decent viz, little current, no penetration, not a huge wreck site) in our gas planning and that we would have no problem accommodating a scenario where either one of us lost our deco gas. We had enough back gas in reserve that either one of us could have finished deco (on 80%) left the other breathing back gas, gone up to the boat, retrieved another cylinder of 80% (of which we had 3 extra 40s, in addition to the 80 we were each carrying), and brought it back down. But, since we were both carrying more than twice what either of us needed, that was an extremely remote possibility. And, in fact, we both got out with WELL over half our deco gas remaining. The only way we would have needed help from someone else is if we both lost our deco gas (or both lost our back gas).

I don't think our plan was imprudent. I do agree it would have had a shorter runtime if we had been able to employ 2 deco gases. But, neither of us were trained for that, so we maximized the usage of our training without exceeding it. Also, as I said, AN/DP standards do allow for the instructor to teach use of multiple deco gases. Our instructor simply chooses not to.

When you did TDI AN, did you also do TDI DP? Regardless, it does sound like the curriculum and standards have changed sometime in the last 11 years. I guess that's to be expected.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

Back
Top Bottom