The Ultimate Dive Computer...

[ElectricZombie]

...Your brain + a bottom timer...

 

[Charlie99]

ElectricZombie once bubbled...
...Your brain + a bottom timer...

Your brain + a computer. I don't understand why people want to eliminate that additional info/opinion of the computers calculation.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Charlie99 once bubbled...
Your brain + a computer. I don't understand why people want to eliminate that additional info/opinion of the computers calculation.

It's a matter of philosophy. There are those technical divers who feel that reliance on anything that can fail that you don't absolutely need should be avoided.

Personally, I compare it to instrument flying. You can fly an aircraft on an instrument approach with nothing more than needle, ball, airspeed and an ADF for a non-precision approach and in fact you have to demonstrate this this level of ability and competence to get your instrument rating. But it can be very demanding and very hard work.

However in the real world it's a lot easier, a lot more flexible, a lot less demanding and mentally exhausting (and consequently a lot safer) if you fly with a full panel and have access to and use avionics that allow precision approaches. If you get to add goodies like a flight director, RMI, HSI, and moving map displays, all the better.

I know of no instrument pilots who would CHOOSE to fly with less than what is available in the airplane but oddly there are technical divers who choose to the same thing on an equally demanding technical dive. There is a difference between having a dive computer available and being overly reliant on it but many technical divers unfortunately do not consider this distinction and avoid computers on what I believe is a well intentioned but somewhat misguided principle.

Why a tech diver would choose to forgo a potentially useful tool that would add more information and allow some flexibility in unforseen events is a good question to ask. A tech diver, like an instrument rated pilot, should have the training and discipline to know when they are being too reliant on an extra piece of equipment and to avoid being lulled into a false sense of security - so with proper training and the right mental attitude, what is the harm of using a dive computer along with proper contingency planning?

In my opinion, much of it comes down to the philosophy under which they are trained and to a related expectation in many camps to conform to the group ideal (no matter what it is based on) or face possible ridicule and rejection. As a psychologist I think it would make for fascinating research.

 

[Braunbehrens]

DA Aquamaster once bubbled...

Personally, I compare it to instrument flying.

And therein lies the problem. Diving is not flying.

The reason not to use a computer is not because you CAN demonstrate that you can do the dive without a computer. The reason is that you will learn what to do and you will KNOW what to do at any point in your dive.

When you fly with instruments, you still KNOW what to do if the instruments fail. When you dive with computers you will never learn how to dive without them.

When you fly it doesn't matter what altitude you were flying at half an hour ago. You just deal with the landing. When you dive, your "landing" is dependent on what "altitude" you had during the whole "flight".

It's a flawed comparison.

I like to compare it to learning math. If you allow your kids to always use a calculator, they will never learn how to do mathematical operations on the fly and in their head.

If you take away the calculator, and teach them some tricks, they will quickly learn not only to do math on the fly, but also to double check it.

If you teach them how the tricks were arrived at, they will have a better understanding of the underlying principles of mathematics.

There is NO WAY to do this if they just use a calculator. What's even worse, they won't know if the calculator is giving the right answer, and if for some reason it doesn't they won't catch it.

P.S. I think this is the wrong thread to discuss this. We should probably take this elsewhere...

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Let me repeat myself since you seemed to have missed the point:

"A tech diver, like an instrument rated pilot, should have the TRAINING and DISCIPLINE to know when they are being too reliant on an extra piece of equipment and to avoid being lulled into a false sense of security - so with PROPER TRAINING and the RIGHT MENTAL ATTITUDE, what is the harm of using a dive computer ALONG WITH PROPER CONTINGENCY PLANNING?"

Not to belabor the point but we are already talking about tech divers who ought to have the training to know what to do without the computer and who are using it with the proper planning to know what to do when it goes belly up.

And yes you are right, the comparison between instrument flying and diving is not totally accurrate. An unskilled or non current instrument pilot will kill himself a whole lot quicker and in a much more spectacular fashion than an unskilled or non current tech diver. Plus the instrument pilot will probably take some innocent passengers or bystanders with him whereas the tech diver normally just kills himself.

It kinda cheeses me off that some of the more dogmatic tech types seem to think they are God's gift to dangerous activities and that the lessons learned, as well as the learning and human factors theory developed through experience in other hazardous pursuits are not worth heeding. It's the ultimate in huberis.

But I digress... In the case of either instrument flying or technical diving, there is a need to maintain currency on the "partial panel" or "no computer" skills. A tech diver NEEDS to have the maturity and discipline to know his limits and maintain his skills. If he does not, whether he carries a computer or not is the least of his problems, he will find a myriad of other ways to screw it up and ill himself.

I think we do agree though that no one should use a computer on a dive - any dive, and in particular an extended range dive - without understanding how it works, how it can fail and what to do if it does. The point we seem to differ on is that I happen to think the average properly trained tech diver is capable of that and conseuqently should feel free to use a computer if he chooses to.

 

[Braunbehrens]

DA Aquamaster once bubbled...
Let me repeat myself since you seemed to have missed the point:

"A tech diver, like an instrument rated pilot, should have the TRAINING and DISCIPLINE to know when they are being too reliant on an extra piece of equipment and to avoid being lulled into a false sense of security - so with PROPER TRAINING and the RIGHT MENTAL ATTITUDE, what is the harm of using a dive computer ALONG WITH PROPER CONTINGENCY PLANNING?"

Not to belabor the point but we are already talking about tech divers who ought to have the training to know what to do without the computer and who are using it with the proper planning to know what to do when it goes belly up.

And yes you are right, the comparison between instrument flying and diving is not totally accurrate. An unskilled or non current instrument pilot will kill himself a whole lot quicker and in a much more spectacular fashion than an unskilled or non current tech diver. Plus the instrument pilot will probably take some innocent passengers or bystanders with him whereas the tech diver normally just kills himself.

It kinda cheeses me off that some of the more dogmatic tech types seem to think they are God's gift to dangerous activities and that the lessons learned, as well as the learning and human factors theory developed through experience in other hazardous pursuits are not worth heeding. It's the ultimate in huberis.

But I digress... In the case of either instrument flying or technical diving, there is a need to maintain currency on the "partial panel" or "no computer" skills. A tech diver NEEDS to have the maturity and discipline to know his limits and maintain his skills. If he does not, whether he carries a computer or not is the least of his problems, he will find a myriad of other ways to screw it up and ill himself.

I think we do agree though that no one should use a computer on a dive - any dive, and in particular an extended range dive - without understanding how it works, how it can fail and what to do if it does. The point we seem to differ on is that I happen to think the average properly trained tech diver is capable of that and conseuqently should feel free to use a computer if he chooses to.

I didn't miss your point, but I think you missed mine.

I don't disagree that a techdiver should use a computer if he feels like it. I also believe that suicide should be legal. It was a free country, and still is for the most part.

My point is that if you use a computer you will not LEARN how to figure out your deco without a computer.

This is really what we disagree on.

I think that if you use standard mixes, and know a few rules, you can figure out which deco you need to do. A computer is only going to penalize you for deep stops, and give you erroneous information.

The little decent info a computer would give you is easily memorized or checked on a simple 2 page table. This is all I carry for any dive that I do.

The computer between your ears is much more powerful than the one on your wrist, and it can take into account the latest in deco theory, instantly adjust to environmental factors, and instantly adjust to any gas changes.

However, if you feel that I am dogmatic, and are "cheesed off" etc, I suggest we suspend the conversation. I'm not interested in any personal strife, only in the diving part of the discussion.

 

[LUBOLD8431]

Hey Braunbehrens,

DO you even know what features the VR-3 computer has???

This is not a plain ole diving computer.

You can actually cut tables from it. Make backup tables, and do deco on the fly. It is not the standard dive computer.

Maybe you should do some research on the computer model first, before you and your DIR buddies make such a blanket statement about them.

ALso, I do know how to do deco with tables, and using my brain. I also use a PC, which I have a program which cuts tables for me, and then I use a computer as a backup. I want to take advantage of the new technology out there. I have read, seen, and heard about the features and the general function of the VR3.

I would have to say, it is a nice unit... I wish I had the money to buy one...

Maybe I'm not DIR. Maybe I am. Maybe I dont want to be. I dont know, and I dont care...

I will dive however the hell i feel like. Would you PLEASE stop telling me how to dive. You are like a broken record....

 

[Braunbehrens]

LUBOLD8431 once bubbled...
Hey Braunbehrens,

DO you even know what features the VR-3 computer has???

This is not a plain ole diving computer.

You can actually cut tables from it. Make backup tables, and do deco on the fly. It is not the standard dive computer.

Maybe you should do some research on the computer model first, before you and your DIR buddies make such a blanket statement about them.

ALso, I do know how to do deco with tables, and using my brain. I also use a PC, which I have a program which cuts tables for me, and then I use a computer as a backup. I want to take advantage of the new technology out there. I have read, seen, and heard about the features and the general function of the VR3.

I would have to say, it is a nice unit... I wish I had the money to buy one...

Maybe I'm not DIR. Maybe I am. Maybe I dont want to be. I dont know, and I dont care...

I will dive however the hell i feel like. Would you PLEASE stop telling me how to dive. You are like a broken record....

I do know the features of the VR3...at least I did at one time. I checked it out some time ago, but in the end dismissed it as something else I didn't need.

You can dive any way you like, you don't need my permission. I was replying to DAA's comments. I was even saying that this is not the place to have this discussion...but then I figured the thread had pretty much died anyway, so we really weren't clogging up anything.

The other guys in this thread who seem to be of a similar opinion as I are not here because they are my "buddies", believe it or not, there just happen to be quite a few people who think this way.

I'm sorry if this bothers you, but there isn't much I can do about it...nor do I want to. I suggest keeping an open mind, and not getting aggravated over things you can't change. Works for me.

 

[blackice]

From a list of only two computer the choice was quite easy but then it would have been better with the Explorer as an option.
< VR3 >