The Truth about the PRISM!!!!!!!!! OH NO!!!!

[silent running]

I don't know about you pescador775, but I always learn much more about someone's problems/complaints after they've calmed down and not while they're ranting. Neither Caveseeker nor myself require someone else to parse their words, just not exaggerate and be truthful. Otherwise it's not of much use to others who are trying to learn something on this forum. As for the cal potts, I have no idea why he would be screwing around with them so much in the first place. They are meant to be set and left alone and are not connected in any way to the electronics. They are only there to make sure the secondary needle gauge is physically, visually consistant. I adjusted mine twice during a month long trip. It doesn't make much sense. So maybe he's not so informed. As for the scrubber bucket, the Navy tested it's durability by dropping it repeatedly from 20ft on concrete. It didn't break. Again, I don't know any CCR divers, including YBOD divers who go poking around shipwrecks without the pretty yellow box. And people who've never dived a Prism can complain all they want about the 'fragile' secondary. But it is no substitute for actual experince diving with the thing, day in day out. It is not that fragile, I have dropped mine and it's fine. And as I said before, whatever fragility there is, it's outweighed by the design excellence of making it independent of the power and electronics and thus more reliable and redundant. If you don't understand this, then you don't understand the design.

 

[babar]

Also John Taylor welshes on sales made on this board. And then won't fess up, and then won't return PM's or E-mails

Babar

PS ask him where that HID light head is?

 

[Mverick]

I don't know about you pescador775, but I always learn much more about someone's problems/complaints after they've calmed down and not while they're ranting. Neither Caveseeker nor myself require someone else to parse their words, just not exaggerate and be truthful. Otherwise it's not of much use to others who are trying to learn something on this forum. As for the cal potts, I have know idea why he would be screwing around with them so much in the first place. They are meant to be set and left alone and are not connected in any way to the electronics. They are only there to make sure the secondary needle gauge is physically, visually consistant. I adjusted mine twice during a month long trip. It doesn't make much sense. So maybe he's not so informed. As for the scrubber bucket, the Navy tested it's durability by dropping it repeatedly from 20ft on concrete. It didn't break. Again, I don't know any CCR divers, including YBOD divers who go poking around shipwrecks without the pretty yellow box. And people who've never dived a Prism can complain all they want about the 'fragile' secondary. But it is no substitute for actual experince diving with the thing, day in day out. It is not that fragile, I have dropped mine and it's fine. And as I said before, whatever fragility there is, it's outweighed by the design excellence of making it independent of the power and electronics and thus more reliable and redundant. If you don't understand this, then you don't understand the design.

Well, the problem from my understanding with the scrubber bucket was that if you hit it underwater it has a problem loosing it's seal. Which puts water in the bucket. It wasn't that it broke.

And on the Secondary, Yea it's a good idea if you can get it to work reliably. Most MK15's couldn't. That's why every MK15 I've seen has had a LCD in there. Not a needle. So, people learned it's not a good thing. To easy to damage. Steam Machines comes out with one. I figured they had a much more durabe unit. I guess it's still not a bulletproof secondary. For that, I'd stick with an LCD. On a second circuit. So it reads the sensors just like the Prism does. Just not as delicate. Can take a beating. Electronics are a neat thing. You can build in anything you want. But you need someone who knows how to do it.

I don't think it's a horrible design. I just see problems. And, nobody on here had ever pointed them out. I read all the Rebreather threads. All I hear is Praise on the Prism. Nice to hear the Pro's and Cons. Instead of hearing, "MY UNIT IS THE BEST"... And no mention of the problems they've had. They should be posted. Not hidden in PM's. Because then others spend $8000 and then find out the problems on there own. Ever hear of Consumer Reports. They report the good and bad.

Oh, and I don't care if Steam Machines gave him 3-4 secondaries for free. I wouldn't want it to break that many times. That wastes a lot of my time. Especially if I missed a dive because of it. I don't have a lot of free time. So, when I buy something that ruins my trip. I'm going to be really pissed off.... Like anyone would be.

And I haven't seen you post any problems with your Prism. Or anything you don't like about it. Every piece of equipment has problems. So, maybe you don't want to make the factory mad at you. Cause then they might not support you. I don't know why. But, you've never posted a bad thing about the Prism. How would that help someone looking to buy the thing??

 

[silent running]

Hello Mverick, let's get this secondary thing straight. An LCD requires power. Fine. But as everybody knows, sea water and batteries do not mix well, so the less of them the better. The Prism secondary is not the same as the MK15, it is double jeweled and potted, whereas the MK15 has a single jeweled movement and thus more fragile gauge inside a 1 ata metal housing. So why and however a MK15 diver choses to modify their unit is their issue alone. Again, if you think having another battery for your secondary-or in the case of the YBOD sharing the same power supply as the primary-is a preferable design, great. 99% of Prism users have no problems with the passive secondary, so by definition it works very reliably. And many like myself see it's uniquely simple design as a major selling point. And no engineer, no matter how good they are, can make a digital secondary that works without a battery. As for the bucket/scrubber seal, before I got my cover I nailed mine underwater on a big rock in Baja, right at the top where it meets the head and where the seal is. I gouged the bucket badly. It didn't leak at all. That's my experience. The scrubber has 2 o-rings and I have not heard of any leaks that resulted from impacts, only when the o-rings began to compress after years of use, as all o-rings do. And by the way, I have posted issues I had with my unit. I had a problem with the connectors at the top of my counterlungs and I said so on one of the recent threads reguarding the Prism. They fixed them as soon as I returned from the trip. And I was able to fix the problem in the field and continued my trip without missing a dive. Was I pissed off that my counterlung started leaking? You bet. But I delt with it and had no further issues. And I let SMI have a chance to correct it, they have changed the design to something better and everybody's happy. I'm not looking to sell Prisms either. I just don't like all the sloppy thinking and mega geekery that sometimes passes for informed opinion on this forum. I would like it if more people would dive CCRs because the more of us there are, dive ops will have to accomodate us. So I do have an interest in how well informed everybody is. And how could my not having any major complaints be unhelpful to someone who is interested in buying one? I bought mine because of the soundness of the design, it's ease of use and compactness. Anybody who decides to buy a CCR will hopefully be doing so because they understand and approve of the design choices the manufacter has made and not because of anything else. I think any information that is truthful is valuable, even if it's negative. The issue with jptrealty is not the complaining itslf, but his apparent lack of understanding of his own unit and the hyperbolic/inaccurate things he says. That's unhelpful. Remember, this is a guy who keeps selling his RBs and obviously isn't happy with any of his purchases. In order to make an informed choice, one must really do their homework, and I'm not sure that everybody always does. There is a temptation to get caught up in the subjective, emotional side of things because it's easier than...doing your homework.




.

 

[silent running]

Oh Mverick, where in St.Louis do you live? I'm from there too. I grew up in U.City and moved to NYC 18yrs ago.-Andy

 

[Mverick]

Oh Mverick, where in St.Louis do you live? I'm from there too. I grew up in U.City and moved to NYC 18yrs ago.-Andy

Actually, I live in Edwardsville, IL. Close to the College, SIUE. St. Louis is easier for people to find on a map.

Was at Blueberry Hill last month. Split Lip Rayfield was playing. Alison Krauss at the Fox. And at The Sheldon last week Rhonda Vincent. Nice place to go St. Louis. But the diving in the Mississippi stinks...

And on the Secondary. You're O2 cells are batteries. Just not enough to do the job for a LCD. Too bad. I'd like the secondary that way also. Maybe if they put a large capacitor that was capturing all the power the cells provide while not reading it would be able to power the lcd for a dive. Or a small rechargeable battery that is recharged from a line run to the O2 cells through the normal cable to the secondary. But, I like seeing all 3. So if I get goofy I don't have to switch. And on the Prism there isn't any way to see all three at the same time.

By the way. If you fill your LCD set with liquid. Like they have done on a few Hammerheads for depth. It's real hard to flood or implode them. There are other ways. I just want one I don't have to baby. Sounds like you're having good luck with yours. For the $8000 I don't think I would want to risk it. If everything was kosher with it I think it would be a nice unit.

There are other things too. About the Prism. And About the Meg. I don't like. At least, not for $8000..... For me a $1500 converted IDA will get it done. Hammerhead on a new unit is a good idea. Has most of the things I prefer. Optima might be it. But, this is a thread about the Prism.

 

[silent running]

Good old Blueberry Hill, an STL institution. I'm aware that the O2 sensors are a sort of battery and the capacitor/rechargeable bat. idea sounds interesting and is worth looking into. But I think that even with the higher output of the SMI sensors, they are still far shy of what would be needed to power an LCD and thus it sounds unlikely that some way can be found to harness their power in the way you suggest. I'm sure an LCD can be made to be durable, that was never a reason why I prefered the Prism design over an LCD. It's a matter of simplicity. If I'm not mistaken, any faint analogue signal like the one that comes from the sensors, must be amplified in order to be usable as an input to a digital circuit, this in addition to the power needed just to drive the display. And of course, that's another piece of hardware, an amp, that you'd need to make a sec LCD work. I think this is correct, but I might be wrong. But either way, I am sure that there is no simpler and thus reliable way to build a sec display even if your idea could be made to work. But you're still not impressed, so be it. A few more things about the sec display, I clip my sec to the bottom of my exhale lung so it's right there when I need to look at it. As a result it gets banged around on things and dragged over the sand, wreck decks, rocks, etc.. and it always works. So I don't think it gets very much babying. Also, I can switch between the 3 sensors in less than 3 seconds, which is plenty fast in terms of getting info to my brain in order to make a decision. And it certainly doesn't take any real physical effort. I'm not sure that being able to see all 3 sensors simultaneously is that big of an advantage. And more significantly, when I switch between sensors, I get a very good idea of how each is behaving-how fast they are reacting to the changing PO2 by seeing how fast the needle comes up as I switch from one to the next. I think it maybe easier to compare them that way rather than having 3 separate readouts blinking at me all at once, which creates it's own lag time in sorting out/processing the info. The Kiss readouts are wrist mounted and a little bulkier than I would like, though I hear they are working on a smaller hud. But then again straining to read 3 small changing, flickering, digital displays sounds like it could be a little less than ideal. I still think the graphically-based needle display is the way to go in addition to my preference for simplicity in a secondary. If you're looking for another budget over-the-shoulder CCR idea, a constant flow, variable needle type orifice conversion of a Drager Ray seems the way to go. The Austalian rebreather designer Kerry, whom I met in PNG had some friends who were very happy with that arrangement. He's on diveoz as tubby. Check it out-Andy

 

[DiveTub]

Well
We have 10 PRISM Topaz arriving here in Australia very soon, Training is looking like mid May....
Nothing said here has swayed me from purchasing one of the units.

Cheers
Chris

 

[Silverback]

Hello all...

I've been reading through these threads and don't really understand. I've got two Topaz units ordered and looking forward to my training as well as diving them. Nothing in these threads has changed my mind on this. In the pool demo that we did, one person picked up the unit by the handle in the back plate and by the base of the scrubber and it actually moved the canister enough that it did break the seal. In the pool, the scrubber flooded but he still dove it. At least until the cocktail was given to him... Why... because he wanted to see what it would breathe like in that condition... He noticed that his WOB increased, but he could still breathe. He also learned, very quickly I might add, how not to pick up the unit. Good place to learn this, in a pool. As for the canister leaking after it gets knocked, isn’t that what the cover is for? Personally, I plan on taking my unit in cave systems, Wrecks… all the normal overhead diving I do now. Why wouldn’t I.

Over the many times I've seen the unit, and this unit is pretty beaten up, the secondary display is always kept in a small Pelican style case to protect it. Personally I think this is a good idea. I myself stayed away for the HID lights for the simple reason that the bulb was just too expensive to replace and I've always heard how fragile they were. Well, aside from the fact that I didn’t like the switch on the canister, I waited until a unit came out with a switch in the head and went with that. But, I always make sure that when I get out of the water that it’s always in its protective case. Same as I always clip it off somewhere high on my rig so that it doesn’t get banged. Seems to me that this would be the practical way to handle the secondary display for the Topaz. Or any other CCR display unit. IBM advertises a laptop that you can drop… but you don’t do it. The secondary display or any display for that matter is part of a life sustaining device. You give it the care it should have.

If I’m not mistaken, I think most folks that have computers, expensive gauges, etc… and take extra steps to protect them rather then abuse them. I don’t know Mr. Taylor, but reading his first post kind of put a bad taste in my mouth right from the beginning. Bashing one or ones products in an open forum is never a good idea. All it does is really show what a person is really like. Same as if a person is angry about something, they should never write something in anger… I think that’s writing 101. Maybe the Topaz wasn’t the unit for him. If I’m not mistaken, the Topaz isn’t really the unit the Navy went with, although this is the unit that the testing was done on, but didn’t SMI produce the Invader for the Navy, which is basically the Topaz but with slight modifications to conform to the Navy’s specs. From what I’ve heard, maybe that unit may have been a better unit for him.

Anyway… that’s just my 2 cents worth…

Now… I’d say lets all go diving, but the water up here is still way too hard and I don’t have a chainsaw.

Dave

 

[Silverback]

And this is a surprise? A government official denying such a thing.. WOW…

10) THE NAVY TEST WAS NOT OFFICIAL, THIS INFORMATION COMES FOR A CONGRESSMAN AND A SENATOR, I asked them for a favor. I you doubt my sincerity I am having dinner with someone who is running unopposed in 06 at Perse in NYC tonight.