The Psychology of Pushing the Limits

[boulderjohn]

I suppose I'd also not be as excited if they became more frequently dived sites.

I think excitement plays a role, and I don't think it is the same thing as being an adrenaline junky. In my career in education, I was involved with a number of projects that increased our boundaries of knowledge about instructional theory, and I was frequently put into the role of trying to explain those findings to audiences, many of them skeptical. A lot of this had to do with online education, a cutting edge area of instruction. It was downright exhilarating--exciting to the max. It was not, however, remotely dangerous, although I think a lot of the staunch traditionalists in my audiences wanted to shoot me.

I think a diver about to do something that has not been done before might approach such an opportunity with an excited sense of anticipation. I wonder if that excited sense of anticipation might affect the ability to make a reasonable analysis of the risks and challenges of the task and the diver's ability to deal with them. I hate to go back to David Shaw, but I think there was something of that going on there.

 

[Michael Guerrero]

In response to your original post, which might be out of synch with the current trajectory of the thread, I'm a diver who has exceeded the limits of his training repeatedly. I dived solo on my 6th and 7th dives, right after my OW cert. I did many deco dives before I was certified to do them. I've done wreck penetrations without certification. I've dived beyond my depth certifications routinely, with equipment that I was not specifically trained by an instructor to use. In all instances, I did what I consider to be due diligence in preparing myself for those dives.

I don't think this makes me a bad-ass (quite the contrary). And it's a non-event in comparison to the explorations and limits pushed by divers of acclaim. The reason I did these things is because I felt confident in my preparation, mental state, and ability. I put the time and effort into preparation to feel comfortable with the risks I was exposed to. And by accomplishing new things (new for me), I derived a satisfaction out of a hobby I enjoy.

The scuba industry is replete with people who abide by a mantra without understanding the whys and hows. It was pretty obvious from early on that MOST of my instructors had no better understanding of the underlying issues and science of a type of diving than I did, and what they told me was simply a rule they remembered from their training, without grasping the reasons for their actions. I contribute this primarily to a lack of effort and thirst for understanding on their part. I cannot abide by that sort of conformance, and so I choose to educate myself and seek intercourse with others to better understand the environment I enter and risks I face.

I engage in no other "extreme" sports and would not classify myself as an adrenalin junky.

EDIT:

Also, thanks for the book recommendation, I'm going to take a look.

Mike

 

[mathauck0814]

In response to your original post, which might be out of synch with the current trajectory of the thread, I'm a diver who has exceeded the limits of his training repeatedly. I dived solo on my 6th and 7th dives, right after my OW cert. I did many deco dives before I was certified to do them. I've done wreck penetrations without certification. I've dived beyond my depth certifications routinely, with equipment that I was not specifically trained by an instructor to use. In all instances, I did what I consider to be due diligence in preparing myself for those dives.

I don't think this makes me a bad-ass (quite the contrary). And it's a non-event in comparison to the explorations and limits pushed by divers of acclaim. The reason I did these things is because I felt confident in my preparation, mental state, and ability. I put the time and effort into preparation to feel comfortable with the risks I was exposed to. And by accomplishing new things (new for me), I derived a satisfaction out of a hobby I enjoy.

The scuba industry is replete with people who abide by a mantra without understanding the whys and hows. It was pretty obvious from early on that MOST of my instructors had no better understanding of the underlying issues and science of a type of diving than I did, and what they told me was simply a rule they remembered from their training, without grasping the reasons for their actions. I contribute this primarily to a lack of effort and thirst for understanding on their part. I cannot abide by that sort of conformance, and so I choose to educate myself and seek intercourse with others to better understand the environment I enter and risks I face.

I engage in no other "extreme" sports and would not classify myself as an adrenalin junky.

EDIT:

Also, thanks for the book recommendation, I'm going to take a look.

Mike

What you describe is reckless behavior. Undertaking dives without training and getting away with it is not the type of limit pushing that I believe John was referring to initially.

His references were to trained and experienced divers (There's an argument that Shaw was none of these things - he was just bold; but look how that turned out).

 

[dumpsterDiver]

What you describe is reckless behavior. Undertaking dives without training and getting away with it is not the type of limit pushing that I believe John was referring to initially.

His references were to trained and experienced divers (There's an argument that Shaw was none of these things - he was just bold; but look how that turned out).

I have been confused about what kind of limit pushing he was interested in. Initially he seemed to be focused only on people who were pushing the limits of mankind- record dives and all that. Those are a very small pool of people. If the intent is to discuss the motivations of people who push their own personal limits, then that would seem to open up to nearly everyone. ??

 

[Akimbo]

Interesting. I suppose the same question can be posed to the early pioneers in SCUBA like Hans Hass and Jacques Cousteau. They were “pushing the limits” in the 1930s and 40s because they wanted to capture images and study the environment.

My evolution was also driven by having a task to accomplish rather than pushing boundaries… which happened to be the same thing at the time. That motivation, supported by insane budgets, made it more of an engineering challenge than an adventure.

It started for me in Navy deep diving programs and ended up on purpose-built saturation diving support vessels in the North Sea. It tends to make an avid sport diver a bit of a mercenary. It sounds odd, but getting killed or having someone die on your watch has evolved into a personal affront for sat divers. That has carried over to my recreational diving ever since.

With the exception of the payday and large budgets, I suspect that “technical diving” pioneers shared the same viewpoint. They had a task they wanted to accomplish and worked on it like an engineering problem. The reality is you can get just as dead in 15 or 1500' of water. Is an OW student really all that different than any other diver attempting new personal limits?

Sorry if this is a bit rambling but the question has brought up a lot of different thoughts.

 

[boulderjohn]

I have been confused about what kind of limit pushing he was interested in. Initially he seemed to be focused only on people who were pushing the limits of mankind- record dives and all that. Those are a very small pool of people. If the intent is to discuss the motivations of people who push their own personal limits, then that would seem to open up to nearly everyone. ??

To clarify, I am particularly interested in talking about the psychology of those who push beyond the known limits of diving in general rather than people who push beyond personal limits that are well within the established limits of the sport. It is very possible that the psychology of the two groups is the same, but I am looking especially at the people who have achieved a high level of personal knowledge and skill and who choose to attack a limit that is a serious challenge to them because it has been a serious challenge to all.

If you are certified to dive to 60 feet and choose to dive to 70, that is, of course, exceeding the limits of your training, but that is not what i am talking about. I am instead talking about people who challenge our notions of human physiology and human ability in general. That is why I chose to put this in the technical diving forum rather than the basic diving forum.

 

[Akimbo]

To clarify, I am particularly interested in talking about the psychology of those who push beyond the known limits of diving in general rather than people who push beyond personal limits that are well within the established limits of the sport….

I wonder where world-class freedivers/apniests fit in the spectrum. They are certainly pushing very dangerous human limits. I suspect that their accomplishment is almost entirely personal where most record level accomplishments in diving have been to achieve a functional objective.

 

[Ricky B]

To clarify, I am particularly interested in talking about the psychology of those who push beyond the known limits of diving in general ...

Perhaps part of the answer is in the physiology of thrill-seekers. A long time ago, I read an article that stated that different people have different, for lack of a better term, "excitability quotients," which, according to the article was a physiological characteristic. People with low excitability quotients were bored by hum-drum challenges because they were not physically stimulating, but they came alive with tasks that would overwhelm and terrify people with normal excitability quotients.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

To clarify, I am particularly interested in talking about the psychology of those who push beyond the known limits of diving in general rather than people who push beyond personal limits that are well within the established limits of the sport. It is very possible that the psychology of the two groups is the same, but I am looking especially at the people who have achieved a high level of personal knowledge and skill and who choose to attack a limit that is a serious challenge to them because it has been a serious challenge to all.

If you are certified to dive to 60 feet and choose to dive to 70, that is, of course, exceeding the limits of your training, but that is not what i am talking about. I am instead talking about people who challenge our notions of human physiology and human ability in general. That is why I chose to put this in the technical diving forum rather than the basic diving forum.

How many people on here have set world records? How many know world record holders well enough to discuss their psychology? Seems like a pretty narrow focus group.

The only thing I can add: I was friends with a guy who decided he was going to attempt to break the world record for deep air. He was diving the walls in the Bahamas solo, with a big steel tank and I convinced him to wear a pony bottle. He was (apparently) doing many dives in warm water (without any support or buddy) to around 330 on air. He said he felt entirely in control at 330 or so. He was even trying to rig up some kind of deal that would automatically drop lead if he passed out.. He was dodging some personal problems and was also a fugitive felon at the time. Discussions with him and a few others who claimed a lot of single tank solo experience to 300 on air, were probably influential in me making my deepest solo air dive.

I finally talked some sense into him and he discontinued his efforts, ended up being captured and doing his time and last I heard he was still diving, but not doing crazy stuff.

 

[Akimbo]

How many people on here have set world records? ...

Another diver and I held one for about a month when it was broken by another sat team on our system. It wasn’t that big a deal since Hannes Keller made a semiconscious bounce dive to about the same depth a decade earlier. The main difference was we were in saturation, our lock-out lasted a lot longer, and nobody died. Keller’s entire dive probably cost less than the Helium we burned through.

You can turn most anything into a record if you look hard enough. How about a left-handed 43 year old Canadian-born female Hungarian citizen with blond hair and brown eyes reaching 180' on 32% Nitrox?

This might be a good time to reinforce dumpsterDiver and reiterate the obvious:

[rant]Just for the record: [/rant]
My personal opinion is 500' surface supplied is nuts and untethered is beyond silly. Not that it can’t be done, just that you don’t have enough bottom time to accomplish anything useful and the probability of serious injury and death is too high to justify not serving a purpose.

If the purpose is some kind of bragging rights, put that in perspective. Saturation divers have been working far deeper than that 24/7 for 40 years. Is boasting that you grabbed a handful of mud at 500' and can still walk and hold your bodily fluids going to improve your life? Your choice.

That depth is the job of saturation divers, ROVs, and one-atmosphere suits. You can’t pack enough gas even with a rebreather to cover reasonable contingencies and not nearly enough is known about bounce dive physiology for decompression tables to be reliable. Compound that with not having a chamber on the surface to treat DCS and you may as well play Russian Roulette.