The problem of long-term support for boutique equipment

[rhwestfall]

Isn't that basically the risk with any stuff? How many discontinued or no-longer-supported items exist with major brand names too?

I can only quickly think of Poseidon still making things "backwards compatible" {regulators]

 

[JackD342]

I have given this significant thought in the past, trying to understand if there are obvious warning signs or indicators that might suggest one brand is riskier than another for long term support.
I was an Aeris dealer, was very invested with that brand/company, and was VERY unhappy when AUP pulled the plug on me. Especially since they would not move me to an Oceanic account to continue support for the Aeris product. I always thought of Oceanic as an "A" brand, and was a bit blindsided.

In retrospect, after having spent a few years as an Aeris dealer it was obvious that AUP was struggling. But that was not so easy for an outsider to notice, it was more apparent to their dealers.

For individual items, the best indicator of future support is past support. The speed with which a company eliminates support for old items suggests where they will probably go in the future. I think that is most important and applicable when considering regulators. I think most companies will not throw the same level of support behind BCDs as they do regulators, as they are just not intended or expected to last as long. Perhaps the same can be said for computers.

For a specific company, I think I have noticed a few risk indicators:

1. One would be who actually designs and manufactures the regulators. If there is some brand engineering going on where the item is actually just a rebranded item purchased from another company, then long term support is perhaps dependent on BOTH company's willingness to continue. Easy for an OEM to walk away and leave the customer facing brand out in the cold.
2. The factor I think may be the most indicative of risk, is who owns the company? In the case of a small brand, still owned and controlled by the founder(s) or perhaps only recently transitioned to a second generation family ownership, that brand/company may not survive the transition out of the original owner's hands. If a small company has managed to grow into something that is now owned and run by a larger business and/or ownership interested in it as an investment, I suspect that company may be have a more predictable positive future once it has successfully navigated the transition out of the "founder's hands." As big as AUP was, I think it was still a family company.
3. Let's not forget dealer network and market penetration. I can think of one company that does pretty well in Europe, but has so far attempted to crack the US market at least twice if not 3x in the last 10 years or so. Yes, they do have current distribution in the US again and multiple dealers have signed on, but I don't want to risk my relationship with my customers by selling them items that might lose local support (again) if this attempt also winds up circling the drain.

 

[rhwestfall]

If ownership is by an investment company, kiss it all goodbye.

 

[JackD342]

If ownership is by an investment company, kiss it all goodbye.

Example(s)?

Really, I am curious. I am not aware of any. The one such investment holder I am aware of is Aqualung's new owner after Air Liquide sold them, and I have so far seen no changes that I would attribute to new ownership. I believe Huish is a single owner, or if not then a single controlling partner.

And my point is that anything that survives the transition from family company to a more corporate environment is probably relatively safe. It is that transition where "dead weight" gets eliminated.

 

[Bob DBF]

Isn't that basically the risk with any stuff? How many discontinued or no-longer-supported items exist with major brand names too?

Wander over to the vintage and DIY forums.

Sherwood has done well by me, over the years.


Bob

 

[rhwestfall]

Wander over to the vintage and DIY forums.

Almost all of my 2018 dives were done on a double hose (DA Aquamasters w/ Phoenix and HPR upgrades). I have them in both DIN and Yoke for diving at home and travel. My two trips to Curacao were with a DH, and my ice dives and family trip to Tobermory were also with a DH.

 

[Bob DBF]

Almost all of my 2018 dives were done on a double hose (DA Aquamasters w/ Phoenix and HPR upgrades). I have them in both DIN and Yoke for diving at home and travel. My two trips to Curacao were with a DH, and my ice dives and family trip to Tobermory were also with a DH.

There is life after the manufacturers go out of business or quit supporting old regs. You have it easy, I'm keeping my old '62 Nemrod Snark III going so I can make a couple of nostalgia dives a year. That's the reg in my avatar.


Bob

 

[boulderjohn]

The factor I think may be the most indicative of risk, is who owns the company?

This is especially true if the owner of the company is a convicted criminal.

When the dive shop for which I worked decided to offer technical diving for the first time, and I became one of its first students, the shop needed to contract with someone for technical gear. At the insistence of its new technical instructor, it went with Salvo, whose owner was fairly recently out of jail after his contentious (and illegal) parting with Halcyon. The shop had to make a huge initial purchase as part of the agreement, and since as a new student I needed a lot of gear, my first purchase made up most of it. Salvo was not in business very long before the law caught up with them again.

If anyone wants some nice paperweights that used to be very expensive regulators, let me know.

 

[BoltSnap]

At the insistence of its new technical instructor, it went with Salvo, whose owner was fairly recently out of jail after his contentious (and illegal) parting with Halcyon.

Was his going to jail due to his issues with Halcyon?

 

[boulderjohn]

Was his going to jail due to his issues with Halcyon?

This is what I was told. If it is wrong, I hope someone with more knowledge will correct me.

He believed Halcyon owed him a lot of money, so he backed a truck up to the warehouse and took what he believed he was owed. The law did not agree. He formed Salvo after his release from prison. But that was not the end of it. Eventually a raid of Salvo found more Halcyon stuff (like CAD drawings) and that was the end of Salvo.

He took off and left his business partner to reform the company under a new name. The new name is Light Monkey. Light Monkey supposedly would take care of Salvo equipment, but that was not my experience. When my regulators ran into trouble, I was told they would not service them, nor did they have service kits. They told me that a Dive Rite service technician would be able to do it, but that turned out to be untrue.