The Philosophy of Diver Training

[DCBC]

Yup... set myself up for those snappy comebacks, didn't I?

As for the ethical dilemma you propose. If someone wants to dive in Halifax, no, a referral to Florida is not appropriate to complete the course, and I stated what my response to them would be. If someone who happens to just live in Halifax with no interest in diving there and simply wants to learn how to dive so they can go look at some tropical fish down in the Caribbean two or three times a year, why not?

I will now go back to my burger and fries and let you dig in to your esoteric agency's Petto di Pollo con Gamberi e Limone at da Maurizio there on the Halifax Waterfront... you can clog your arteries with that. :cool2:

I guess I'm a simple man and your wit escapes me. I'm happy to understand that you disagree and feel that your educational expertise is enough to overwhelm PADIs way of business. As I've said, I'm a humble instructor with 38 years of experience, 17 with PADI, what would I know? Enjoy your PADI experience. Dive safe.

Wayne

 

[schaffld]

I don't guess I'll bother beyond observing that some time on the Northern California coast or in the North Atlantic off of Newfoundland would provide you with an understanding of what DCBC and I are talking about.

Good, I'm glad you didn't... as soon as I posted that comment about being impolite, I regretted it. I really don't want the discussion to devolve into that.

I will quote myself from a previous post to DCBC

Yes, I suppose I can envision a scenario in which the conditions of an area were so inhospitible that the PADI standards would be insufficient to certify an entry-level diver.

Those geographical areas you describe may very well present the kind of environment that provides absolutely no possibility of safely conducting an entry level diving course within the PADI system as it is outlined in their open water course standards... I've learned that from this very informative discussion I've been having here in this thread.

Nevertheless, I won't concede that the PADI system is so inflexible that it can't be adapted to fit a vast range of environments outside of the tropical bathtub-like conditions that most recreational diving takes place in. There are tools and clauses in the PADI instructor manual and teaching system that a dedicated instructor has at his/her disposal to teach an entry level course in a vast array of environments. PADI didn't put those tools and clauses in there by mistake. They are there for the very purpose of providing some degree of flexibility for their instructors. I don't need to be versed in legalese or twist words and meanings around to do it either. I agree, compared to the agency through which DCBC teaches, PADI appears more restrictive towards its instructors.

Yes, it would need a dedicated instructor. Yes, if run through a shop, the shop would have to be flexible enough to allow the extra time it would take to teach the course and potentially eat into its profits (or just charge more). Yes, it would take a motivated student that realizes the extra work involved is for his/her safety and won't just demand a c-card for completing the OW standards in the book. Yes, under PADI, I may even need to submit a waiver from standards so that I can add skills and knowledge components which can be formally evaluated before certification is given.

Whew, I'll admit, that sounds like a lot of work... but it is possible. Or, I could just refer them to you or DCBC who are already set up to teach that kind of course through your respective agencies. The right course for the right student... In the meantime, I'll head down to the Philippines with the group of students who just want to dive in much more pleasant conditions and look at fish. I'll never be ashamed to admit that this is what draws me into diving and motivates me to become an instructor so I can bring others into the same world. By the end of our time together, I know I'll be able to certify a group of students who are safe, responsible, and confident divers in those conditions... with a big dose of understanding that the learning doesn't end when they get their cards.

 

[rstofer]

Well, sure ... that is a really, REALLY ... REALLY ... specific set of circumstances. I mean, you're describing a perfect storm here.

I didn't mean to be disrespectful. But those are exactly the circumstances I have to deal with on every single dive. All of the adults in our herd have 7mm wetsuits and HP100 tanks. It is the only scenario I care about. If I can solve this situation, all of the others are a cake walk.

You're right, of course, the swing of an HP 100 is around 8# if we think about it going completely empty. Using 7.5# is more realistic. But it doesn't change the math; one wing will not lift 2 divers from some depth.

The more important question is from what depth will one wing be sufficient? I have no idea... But it better be 60' if using a single wing is going to be taught to OW divers with the admonition that they better think about the problem if they are using wetsuits at greater depth.

Richard

 

[schaffld]

I guess I'm a simple man and your wit escapes me. I'm happy to understand that you disagree and feel that your educational expertise is enough to overwhelm PADIs way of business. As I've said, I'm a humble instructor with 38 years of experience, 17 with PADI, what would I know? Enjoy your PADI experience. Dive safe.

Wayne

Come on, you didn't see how I took your McDonald's crack about PADI and turned it around as a slight dig into your agency... I guess not, because I just had to explain it to you...

I'm not setting out with any sort of youthful enthusiasm to change PADI so that it fits into my neat and idealistic concept of what a training agency should be. All I wanted to do is express my opinion that the training philosophy of PADI is more flexible than it gets credit for. Is it perfect? jeez... no...

I certainly won't be dismissive of your background and experience with them, and I will also most certainly not dismiss my own experience in healthcare with certifying agencies implementing standards on professionals. The two situations are really not that different.

Anyhow, we are venturing into the realm of beating a dead horse now.

Honestly Wayne, our discussion has been informative, educational, humbling, thought-provoking, and most importantly civil. I sincerely appreciate it.

So what do you think? Split-fins or not?

David

 

[rstofer]

So what do you think? Split-fins or not?

David

I'd rather talk about snorkels. Just for the record, I wear one on every dive when using a single hose regulator.

Richard

 

[schaffld]

I'd rather talk about snorkels. Just for the record, I wear one on every dive when using a single hose regulator.

Richard

Wait... I'm sure there's a PADI standard here in my manual somewhere that covers this issue.

 

[Crush]

I'd rather talk about snorkels. Just for the record, I wear one on every dive when using a single hose regulator.

Richard

In overhead environments too? I hope you carry a SpareAir...

 

[schaffld]

rstofer and mpetryk

Can I play in your sandbox now?

I had the last three nights off from work and I'm astounded at myself that I spent the majority of it toiling away on this very thread. It was time well spent, indeed, but I need a break.

 

[rstofer]

In overhead environments too? I hope you carry a SpareAir...

I don't do overhead environments, virtual or physical. At my age, this is no time to start taking chances. I want to get all the money I can from Social Security. It just keeps flowing in every month on the 2d Wednesday. How easy is that?

Richard

 

[RJP]

Those geographical areas you describe may very well present the kind of environment that provides absolutely no possibility of safely conducting an entry level diving course within the PADI system as it is outlined in their open water course standards...

Still can't figure out how you can come to this conclusion.