The Philosophy of Diver Training

[MXGratefulDiver]

I didn't mean to be disrespectful. But those are exactly the circumstances I have to deal with on every single dive. All of the adults in our herd have 7mm wetsuits and HP100 tanks. It is the only scenario I care about. If I can solve this situation, all of the others are a cake walk.

You're right, of course, the swing of an HP 100 is around 8# if we think about it going completely empty. Using 7.5# is more realistic. But it doesn't change the math; one wing will not lift 2 divers from some depth.

The more important question is from what depth will one wing be sufficient? I have no idea... But it better be 60' if using a single wing is going to be taught to OW divers with the admonition that they better think about the problem if they are using wetsuits at greater depth.

Richard

You weren't disrespectful, Richard ... frankly I came across a bit stronger than I meant it to. Sorry ... it's been a really stressful week.

You made a good point that any attempts at rescue will be situational ... and will almost never go the way the book says it should. You will be tasked, stressed, and needing to make snap decisions ... and no matter what you do, you'll end up second-guessing yourself later on. That's the reality of a rescue ... even a successful one.

However, in the context of teaching someone how to affect a rescue, one must consider not only the available tools, but the ability of the diver to use them well. Task-loading a new diver reduces the chances for a positive outcome. With that in mind ... (a) keep it as simple as is needful, and (b) remember that the objective is to get the victim to the surface, where you can help them. So unless it's absolutely needed, you only want to use one BCD. For the reasons I specified earlier, it's better to use the victim's BCD for buoyancy control. Only use yours if it's absolutely necessary to initiate the ascent. Remember, the more air you put in those things, the harder it's going to be to vent it and control your ascent ... you're going to have your hands full just maintaining a grip on the person you're trying to ascend with.

Practice it ... try it both ways ... decide for yourself which is easier.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[schaffld]

Still can't figure out how you can come to this conclusion.

A concession I granted which I now regret.

 

[DCBC]

Still can't figure out how you can come to this conclusion.

Originally Posted by schaffld: "Those geographical areas you describe may very well present the kind of environment that provides absolutely no possibility of safely conducting an entry level diving course within the PADI system as it is outlined in their open water course standards..."

Haven't you been reading the thread? No mystery here.

 

[DCBC]

A concession I granted which I now regret.

Why??

 

[Montana Diver]

Wow!

It has taken me forever to read through all these threads, however, I represented one aspect of this discussion. October of 2008, I realized that I want to try diving, since I vacation in Playa del Carmen and on Maui every year, I contacted my LDS to see what I could get done and they were going through some major health issues so I decided to get things done myself. I signed up for the PADI e-Learning program and set up to do my dives on Maui. I finished the e-Learning in several weeks at my leisure, a blessing for me since I normally work 5 1/2 days a week. My instructor on Maui recommended that I start on the Encyclopedia of Diving to further enhance my knowledge. I also devoured info from Bob's website regarding gas management and viewed nearly every scuba training video on You-Tube. I completed the OW portions, got my c-card and had a blast. Was I trained in rescue, no! Was I competent enough to be someone's buddy, again no. But I was having a great time diving in the tropics.

Returning home to Montana, I realized that the diving bug had bit me hard. I continued my search for knowledge and went back to my LDS. When I explained where I was at in diving and that I had a gigantic thirst for becoming more proficient, my instructor offered me his version of NAUI AOW. I was an observer in his OW sessions and provided him with my view of the class and the individual learning of each student. Over the course of three seperate classes I learned substantially more since we were doing the unconscious diver rescue and dry suit training. I also was introduced to VIP and tumbling tanks plus the differences between air and oxygen compatible
air fills. I haven't completed any AOW dives yet. Still having a blast though.

For me and my personality, the NAUI approach, and more specifically my instructors approach has greatly impressed me. Observing OW students, mu instructor and I discussed divers that might not pass the course and he provided the insight into bringing about a successful completion for most of them. Yes not all passed, however they were all given the most chances to pass and they were the ones to decide they were unable to attain the c-card.

I am certain that a substantial number of divers will be lead around by DM's in the tropics. For them the OW class provided by PADI and other's is fine, however for those who hang out here and on other boards, it appears that they need to dive their dives. My goal is to learn enough and become competent enough to be invited to dive with you who are the backbone of this board.

We are never static...we always moving, either forward or backward. Please allow me to always be a part of those moving forward!

 

[Crush]

I completed the OW portions, got my c-card and had a blast. Was I trained in rescue, no! Was I competent enough to be someone's buddy, again no. But I was having a great time diving in the tropics.

I am certain that a substantial number of divers will be lead around by DM's in the tropics. For them the OW class provided by PADI and other's is fine...

Montana Diver, that is a brilliant summary! Love it. I do feel sorry for that fictional DM being followed about by recent PADI OW graduates, though - that must be one hard-earned paycheck.

 

[schaffld]

Read that post from which you quoted me carefully... the entire post. Within the open water standards of the PADI system, a very specific type of envrionment may just one day present itself that would prohibit an entry level course from being safely taught. Outside of the open water standards but still in the PADI manual and teaching system, however, are plenty of tools at an instructor's disposal to constuct an entry level diver course in just about any locale.

I regret that specific sentence which was quoted because as soon as I hit the "post reply" button, I knew that this particular phrase would be pounced upon and taken out of the full context of the post in an attempt to make some kind of point.

 

[Crush]

Read that post from which you quoted me carefully... the entire post. Within the open water standards of the PADI system, a very specific type of envrionment may just one day present itself that would prohibit an entry level course from being safely taught. Outside of the open water standards but still in the PADI manual and teaching system, however, are plenty of tools at an instructor's disposal to constuct an entry level diver course in just about any locale.

This thread has been painfully instructive. A few days later, I am still trying to deal with the idea that basic-OW certified divers might not have been taught how to surface with an unconscious diver. I find this reprehensible and counter-intuitive from a diver-centric perspective. My pre-dive chat with insta-buddy will now include where we were both certified (caution - warm water location) and with whom they were certified if cert level is basic-OW.

Perhaps I have misunderstood, but the line within the open water standards of the PADI system, a very specific type of envrionment [sic] may just one day present itself that would prohibit an entry level course from being safely taught is just wrong. How about an environment where, under any depth of water, an otherwise air-breathing animal loses consciousness and therefore is unable to raise themselves to the air-breathing level. If buddy doesn't know what to do to bring them up, of what good are they? I have got to take a solo diving course.

 

[Thalassamania]

It's a question of angels on pinheads ... there are lots of diving situations (perhaps most?) that newly minted PADI students are unprepared to handle ... if you don't believe that, just go to any popular dive site and sit by the shore for an hour or so.

The very existence of PPB is proof of my thesis.

 

[rstofer]

Perhaps I have misunderstood, but the line within the open water standards of the PADI system, a very specific type of envrionment [sic] may just one day present itself that would prohibit an entry level course from being safely taught is just wrong. How about an environment where, under any depth of water, an otherwise air-breathing animal loses consciousness and therefore is unable to raise themselves to the air-breathing level. If buddy doesn't know what to do to bring them up, of what good are they? I have got to take a solo diving course.

All of which points out that the minimum acceptable training level is Rescue. For PADI this would imply that AOW was also taken. I believe NAUI will allow an OW diver to take Rescue.

But then the next question is do you 'advertise' that you have taken Rescue. Does your buddy now feel more comfortable with risky behavior? Are you suddenly their backup plan?

It's a lot like the MSD, DM or Instructor certs. Do you really want to claim to the world that you have this training when all you want to do is see the pretty fish? An AOW card is probably all a diver needs to show for recreational dives.

It would be very interesting to do a poll of Rescue divers. My first question is: How deep was your unconscious diver recovery training. I have the feeling that most Rescue classes are taught in 20' to 30' of water and it's true that there is a substantial change in buoyancy in the top 30' (cold water) which makes this depth interesting. But the problem of total lift and manipulating 2 wings doesn't become an issue at such shallow depths. The problem is much more noticeable at greater depths.

It would also be interesting to see which agencies actually teach unconscious diver recovery in OW. Not as an instructor provided extra but as a mandatory requirement for OW certification - written in the book. I'm betting it's not too many.

Richard