The Philosophy of Diver Training

[Diver0001]

Sorry, but that is blaming an instructor for following poor standards. We all want instructors to go beyond the minimums, but if an instructor teaches standards to the letter and it's not good enough, the fault lies with whichever agency wrote those standards.

Yeah. MikeFererra used to make this point all the time too.

If the instructor has any wiggle room (his words) then they will use it and you can't blame the bad instructors for failing to follow the "intent" of standards.

But I do.

Either we're pro's or we're idiots who robotically follow rules.

Do you robotically follow rules, Walter?

Niether do I.

Why would our respective agency affiliations determine which one of us thinks and which one does not?

R..

 

[Diver0001]

Our Club charges $50 a year. This includes instruction and most gear (Reg, BC, Tank & Weights). They have to purchase FMS and rent a suit for the OW dives. Course length depends upon the instructor. Books and certification costs are extra and sold at instructor cost.

Dives usually average twice a week, all year long so check-outs can happen whenever the student is ready. It's a good deal with lots of mentoring by experienced divers.

Good for you. This sounds like an excellent deal for potential students and I would recommend looking into it whole-heartedly if they don't have a need to finish the course on a schedule.

R..

 

[DCBC]

They could be but you're confusing "minimum standards" with "failing to teach mastery".

The standard is like this:

teach clearing a partial flooded mask
teach clearing a fully flooded mask
teach removing and replacing the mask 1 minute later and clearing it
teach removing and replacing a flooded mask and clearing it while swimming with a minimum of 15 metres of swimming in between removing and replacing it.

Those are standards.

I believe you are referring to PADI standards. I believe "mastery" is part of what makes-up these standards. If a student does not have mastery of a skill, have they met the standards for certification? I think not.

What YOU are talking about is teaching *competence* at those skills. It's confusing standards and mastery and that's completely unacceptable on a scuba forum for someone that says they have 38 years of teaching scuba diving.

Perhaps you should define what you mean by mastery, standards and competence. It may also be beneficial to reread my last post more closely. http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/5090768-post452.html

...so what could be your agenda in trying to confuse the issue to the newbies who might encounter this thread? hmmm.....

What are you implying? I'm not trying to confuse anything.

 

[Diver0001]

I believe you are referring to PADI standards. I believe "mastery" is part of what makes-up these standards.

correct

Perhaps you should define what you mean by mastery, standards

*I* was crystal clear. Do you have something to add?

What are you implying? I'm not trying to confuse anything.

I wouldn't expect you to even see it. Your hate for PADI is beyond description and beyond definition. I'm sorry that you can't even see how you confuse issues like "standards" vs. "mastery" and POV v.s. Fact.....

But I don't have 6 months to school you in Socratic method and I don't feel like trying even if you were willing to pay me to educate you.

R..

 

[Jax]

Now, now, gents . . . remember those of us 'basic' divers reading this.

May I propose a couple of definitions? ? ? These are not scuba based, but training based . . . one of those Army kind of things on which Bazillions of American tax dollars are spent.

Standard - that which is clearly defined and measureable normally in an "achieved" or not, "Pass" or Fail".

Mastery - the ability to execute a task to standard a sufficient number of times without failure. That "sufficient number" needs to be defined, of course.

So now I ask a bone fide question of you both: Given that a student can meet the standard (whatever your agency defines), would you certify him or her without s/he demonstrating mastery? If so, why; if not, why not?

Lastly, is your interpretatin of 'mastery' defined by your agency, or by you?

 

[JeffG]

*I* was crystal clear. Do you have something to add?

My GF did the swim. Instructor saw it. ergo...she show mastery. I can't fault the instructor at all.

She was still uncomfortable though, and maybe enough to go dive by herself. LOL it is what it is. No nice easy answers.

I wouldn't expect you to even see it. Your hate for PADI is beyond description and beyond definition. I'm sorry that you can't even see how you confuse issues like "standards" vs. "mastery" and POV v.s. Fact.....

But I don't have 6 months to school you in Socratic method and I don't feel like trying even if you were willing to pay me to educate you.

R..

Now....now.... How you got there is a bit of a stretch.

(I'm a peace maker now......LOL)

 

[Jax]

I met the standard on my swim, too. Had I been the instructor, I would not have passed me. I did not have mastery, and it was painfully obvious to the most casual observer.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

No. If the student does not demonstrate competence and comfort (I hate the term mastery as it really has been degraded to the point that it has no meaning) with the skills then they do not get a certification. As to who decides what that is with my agency I do. There are guidelines but we are encouraged to exceed those and do what is best for the students we have and the conditions they are most likely to dive in. Around here that means they need to be able to remove and replace a mask calmly and with little effort while swimming in good trim, hovering horizontal, and the same with reg retrieval and weightbelt remove and replace. The bottom in most of our training areas is silt from 6 inches to over 6 feet deep. And that is no exaggeration. Lone Wolf and I found that out when trying to set up a nav course at 100+ feet. There are platforms but I've yet to really see one at every dive site. there were none in Puerto Rico so my student had to do all his skills in midwater. Divers do not dive on their knees. Why should it be ok to verify skills that way?

 

[Diver0001]

My GF did the swim. Instructor saw it. ergo...she show mastery.

Some instructors are competent, others are not.

I'm sorry for your GF, but the fact is that standards are standards and if your GF couldn't perform to standards and still "passed" the course then the problem is not the "standards", it's the instructor who chose not to apply them.

Like I said before, the fox guarding the hen house is the single biggest problem in scuba training today. Standards are perfectly ok. It's just a list of skills. Failure to train *competence* in those skills is not an issue with standards.

R..

 

[JeffG]

Some instructors are competent, others are not.

I'm sorry for your GF, but the fact is that standards are standards and if your GF couldn't perform to standards and still "passed" the course then the problem is not the "standards", it's the instructor who chose not to apply them.

Like I said before, the fox guarding the hen house is the single biggest problem in scuba training today. Standards are perfectly ok. It's just a list of skills. Failure to train *competence* in those skills is not an issue with standards.

R..

So a good instructor is a mind reader?

She completed the skill.