The Philosophy of Diver Training

[JeffG]

<snip due to being long>

I do not have the standards, but this is what I saw in one class.

Start on knees.
Take off mask.
Swim from one side of the pool to the other. (without the mask and the help of a buddy).
Get on knees.
Put mask on.


Done in 3 and 1/2 ft of water, in a warm clear pool.

Is that against standards? (PADI in this case)
and does that make them ready for 40F, silty cold Alberta lakes?


edit: That may be enough for some people to do that skill in OW, but probably isn't sufficient for all people. Which was the point of my previous post.


edit 2: Just for instance....My GF was not comfortable just doing it once in the pool with the instructor. We spent many times in the pool going over stuff before she was comfortable with that skill. I don't know of any OW course that would of been able to spend that much time with her. (could of gone private and spend a ton of cash I suppose.)

 

[DCBC]

Standards are fine. I won't say perfect, but an instructor with the motivation and desire to give a *great* scuba course can do just that within the boundaries of standards. Even the lowest, blah blah. cynicism, hate, burn-in-hell standards that DCBC punches in the nose in every single post he makes.

Not quite Rod. When you talk "standards," the definition may be different depending upon the agency. We can either talk "minimum standards," which is the minimum knowledge and demonstrable skill-sets required from the agencies perspective for certification, or the actual amount of knowledge and skill-sets that are required for certification. They may be different.

Since you have mentioned PADI, I'll point out that the "minimum standards" are the same as the certification standards. With other agencies, the instructor may deem their agency standards insufficient for certification and may add additional skill-sets and knowledge that they personally see as appropriate.

If the "minimum standards" are insufficient to provide the diver with the necessary knowledge and skill-sets to dive safely in the instructors view, teaching "within the boundaries of standards" may not be enough. What is required for certification (PADI not withstanding) may change with the training location and the local conditions that the newly certified diver is to be prepared for.

This is one of the differences in the various agency training philosophies that we were exploring before the splitting of the thread. If the certification standards are insufficient to insure diver safety (in my opinion) and divers are being certified to the certification standard, then I feel compelled to "punch them in the nose in every single post I make."

 

[Diver0001]

I do not have the standards, but this is what I saw in one class.

Start on knees.
Take off mask.
Swim from one side of the pool to the other. (without the mask and the help of a buddy).
Get on knees.
Put mask on.

Done in 3 and 1/2 ft of water, in a warm clear pool.

Is that against standards? (PADI in this case)

No, and that's the main problem with standards. A fool who does this is following the "letter" of the standard. If you have your brain engaged you'd never teach a course like that.....

The issue is that because meaningful QA sucks with a force equivalent to a black hole that some instructors are allowed to teach with no consideration to what they *should* have been doing.

Unfortunately, the system is set up with a fox guarding the hen house so improvement is not to be expected. PADI is not alone, btw. PADI, in fact, proabably has, outside the GUE, the best QA in the industry.

and does that make them ready for 40F, silty cold Alberta lakes?

In th PADI system, this is an issue for the instructor. The instructor is supposed to teach to local conditions. The fact that many do not and are not held accountable is, once again, a QA issue.

edit 2: Just for instance....My GF was not comfortable just doing it once in the pool with the instructor.

doing so would be a standards violation. Standards are to teach to mastery, which means repeatable... etc.

We spent many times in the pool going over stuff before she was comfortable with that skill. I don't know of any OW course that would of been able to spend that much time with her. (could of gone private and spend a ton of cash I suppose.)

Yeah, that's an issue. You can't generally ask instructors to put huge amounts of effort into a student for free. I would do it because I don't care about the money. But generally if you need remedial time you have to pay for it.

R..

 

[JeffG]

No, and that's the main problem with standards. A fool who does this is following the "letter" of the standard. If you have your brain engaged you'd never teach a course like that.....

The issue is that because meaningful QA sucks with a force equivalent to a black hole that some instructors are allowed to teach with no consideration to what they *should* have been doing.

Unfortunately, the system is set up with a fox guarding the hen house so improvement is not to be expected. PADI is not alone, btw. PADI, in fact, proabably has, outside the GUE, the best QA in the industry.


In th PADI system, this is an issue for the instructor. The instructor is supposed to teach to local conditions. The fact that many do not and are not held accountable is, once again, a QA issue.


doing so would be a standards violation. Standards are to teach to mastery, which means repeatable... etc.


Yeah, that's an issue. You can't generally ask instructors to put huge amounts of effort into a student for free. I would do it because I don't care about the money. But generally if you need remedial time you have to pay for it.

R..

This sounds a lot like "have your cake and eat it too"

It meets standards....but its the instructors fault.

Sorry. I don't buy that.


Edit: and BTW, I consider the instructor I was talking about as one of the good ones.

 

[DCBC]

I don't know of any OW course that would of been able to spend that much time with her. (could of gone private and spend a ton of cash I suppose.)

If you take a course through a club, there may not be any time limit on the training time. At least this is the way it has been with several of the clubs I have and currently teach with. Training costs are also quite low.

 

[Diver0001]

Sorry. I don't buy that.

Jeff, I'm telling you the way it is *supposed* to work. For instructors with the ethical constitution to do it like this the results are good enough.

The problem is what I said, the QA

As long as instructors are the ones to evaluate if they conformed to standards in terms of teaching "mastery" then the standards have no practical meaning.

Good instructors will teach to the intent of the standards and they will get good results.

Bad instructors will teach to the letter of the standards and they will get the results that everyone moans about.

With a grey area in between.

I'm sorry you don't buy it, but I'm not surprised. Many people have become *hopelessly* cynical due to misinformation and misinterpretation from people--most of whom don't understand how to teach scuba to recreational divers--who are cynical but have no qualms about bashing what they don't understand.

R..

 

[Diver0001]

If you take a course through a club, there may not be any time limit on the training time. At least this is the way it has been with several of the clubs I have and currently teach with. Training costs are also quite low.

In Holland the club system will certify newbies in about a year. That costs about $25 a month for club fees for the "free" training.

In the club system, students pay about $300 for the OW course. The PADI course to the same level costs about $375 but gets done in 2 months instead of 12.

R..

 

[Walter]

The problem is what I said, the QA

That may be a problem, but I suspect it is a minor one.

Bad instructors will teach to the letter of the standards and they will get the results that everyone moans about.

Sorry, but that is blaming an instructor for following poor standards. We all want instructors to go beyond the minimums, but if an instructor teaches standards to the letter and it's not good enough, the fault lies with whichever agency wrote those standards.

 

[DCBC]

In Holland the club system will certify newbies in about a year. That costs about $25 a month for club fees for the "free" training.

In the club system, students pay about $300 for the OW course. The PADI course to the same level costs about $375 but gets done in 2 months instead of 12.

Our Club charges $50 a year. This includes instruction and most gear (Reg, BC, Tank & Weights). They have to purchase FMS and rent a suit for the OW dives. Course length depends upon the instructor. Books and certification costs are extra and sold at instructor cost.

Dives usually average twice a week, all year long so check-outs can happen whenever the student is ready. It's a good deal with lots of mentoring by experienced divers.

 

[Diver0001]

Not quite Ron.

Rob. My father is Ron.

When you talk "standards," the definition may be different depending upon the agency. We can either talk "minimum standards," which is the minimum knowledge and demonstrable skill-sets required from the agencies perspective for certification, or the actual amount of knowledge and skill-sets that are required for certification. They may be different.

They could be but you're confusing "minimum standards" with "failing to teach mastery".

The standard is like this:

teach clearing a partial flooded mask
teach clearing a fully flooded mask
teach removing and replacing the mask 1 minute later and clearing it
teach removing and replacing a flooded mask and clearing it while swimming with a minimum of 15 metres of swimming in between removing and replacing it.

Those are standards.

What YOU are talking about is teaching *competence* at those skills. It's confusing standards and mastery and that's completely unacceptable on a scuba forum for someone that says they have 38 years of teaching scuba diving.

Of course you know that.

Of course you know that all the pros here know that.....

so what could be your agenda in trying to confuse the issue to the newbies who might encounter this thread? hmmm.....

R..