The Philosophy of Diver Training

[Walter]

By noting that every agency draws a line as to how much risk they will accept. Every agency decides where OW training will stop. And in every one of those cases, there are foreseeable situations where the student will not have received sufficient training. Given enough time and enough students, someone will die because of that lack of training.

I disagree with your basic concept.

I agree there are dives that could kill any one of us. None of us are perfect, everyone makes mistakes and no one knows everything about diving, no one can deal with every possible situation.

On the other hand, I don't make dives I think are likely to kill me. I'm not trimix trained. I don't dive trimix. Problem solved. I'm not cave trained. I don't dive caves. Problem solved. If I want to dive trimix or caves, I know enough to get the training to allow me to greatly reduce the risk before I make those dives.

In my opinion, there are some divers who have received training that is so inadequate that they are in danger any time they are in the water regardless of how shallow, how calm, how clear, how little current. The vast majority will never have a problem. They will plod along watched by a DM or get lucky on their own and never have a problem. Eventually, they'll either drop out or gain enough experience and pointers from other divers to make up for their lack of training.

Some will have problems and be rescued by other divers.

Some will be injured.

Some will die.

I agree this could happen to anyone who goes past their limits regardless of their training or their certification agency.

The problem, as I see it, is that many divers are past their limits any time they are diving. I could be wrong, but I believe this is the situation to which Jim is referring when he talks about agencies that consider how many deaths are acceptable.

SEI is charging people to become instructors when they could be finding ways to convert instructors at no to low cost.

For example -- from a quick google search, SEI is represented by one store in Texas. Which has 2 of the top 10 metro areas in terms of population, and 3 of the top 30. The state itself is second in terms of total population of the US.

If SEI really wants to change things, put some trainers in Texas and run a few instructor training courses at 0 to nominal cost for participants. Put real money where their mouths are and I'll believe they actually care about changing things.

While SEI has a 50 year legacy from the YMCA SCUBA Program, SEI is not YMCA. SEI is a new agency. SEI has had to fund everything from scratch. It has a small staff. SEI instructor trainers, just like instructor trainers from other agencies are trying to make a living and need to make a profit. Asking them to work for free is ridiculous.

Besides, you have no idea what SEI is or is not doing along those lines. SEI is giving credit to instructors from other agencies for their experience and depending on the situation, have crossed over instructors at greatly reduced rates. If you're an instructor who will certify through SEI and follow SEI philosophies, you'll likely find SEI more than willing to work with you to get you crossed over. On the other hand, if your philosophy on training is at odds with SEI's philosophy and you merely want to hang another certificate on the wall, you'll probably not find SEI as willing to bend over backward for you.

When those touting the importance of quality don't give you the option to go elsewhere, it doesn't matter what means more.

True, but these things take time. SEI has been in operation since late October 2008. SEI is expanding rapidly. SEI's expansion has a long way to go.

I'm going PADI because even though I live in a top-20 metro area, it's the only choice I have.

If you believe in their philosophy, that's where you should be. If you believe in SEI's philosophy, and want to help give people options, send me your contact info and I'm sure we can come up with another option.

Philosophy without accompanying action is known as hypocrisy.

What is your philosophy?

Not allowing for on-line discovery of SEI instructors, btw, is a serious short coming if you ask me!

I agree and I believe it is one of many things in the works.

 

[Thalassamania]

I grant that there are compelling financial reasons for individuals to not necessarily take such major action.

But the agencies are a different matter. Where are the professional level cross-over course offerings in areas where they have little to no presence? Where are the booths at local dive shows in major metropolitan areas? Where are the jointly sponsored ads and educational articles? Where is the major recruiting efforts for PADI shops and instructors?

There are plenty of low cost things they can be doing. But they are not. Educating the public and penetrating markets doesn't seem to be much of a priority for them. If the agencies are happy enough with the status quo to not even bother with minor marketing drives, let alone working to train and recruit instructors, why shouldn't we also be?

So your philosophy is, in a nutshell, "It sucks, but because no one is fixing it for me, I'm gonna gone along?"

 

[DCBC]

The largest group of students we see fall into one category:

The want to dive on their warm water vacation and they're not interested in diving in cold lakes. They won't do another warm water trip in their life, but they either wanted the bragging rights of being scuba divers, or they don't know that they might have other options such as PADI Discover Scuba or Scuba Diver (not classes we normally schedule though, since even when we tell people about them, they choose the OW route "just in case.")

I don't think anyone is saying anything negative about a resort course. In this case it's clear that the divers are being hand-held and diving shallow.

A problem occurs when an instructor trains a diver who is suppose to be able to dive independently (without the aid of an Instructor or DM) with a buddy and certify him/her to do so without adequate training to dive safely. The "it's a license to learn" attitude, is a cop out.

No one's saying that they have to know everything when they are first certified, but they should be able to help one another, should the situation call for it. Filtering out the course content, giving the student a card and encouraging him to come back to finish his training (to receive what we all know is needed) is criminal in my view. The client trusts the LDS and/or the instructor. Don't tell him he's qualified to dive independently when he's not.

I do not certify a diver unless they are safe to dive with one of my sons or wife. That's a pretty simple test. How could anyone look in the mirror if they would do less. For a few bucks? Where is the professionalism? the integrity?

 

[Crush]

Philosophy without accompanying action is known as hypocrisy.

I can't help myself.

Hypocrisy is the act of claiming to have more admirable principles, beliefs, or feelings than one truly does. Thus, you have to be a liar to be a hypocrite. People nowadays believe that criticizing someone for fallen principles, beliefs, or feelings is hypocritical if you share those same failings - such is not the case. For example, a philanderer can denounce another man for having short sexual relations with many women and not be a hypocrite unless he also claims to not partake in such behaviour.

 

[Thalassamania]

Just another example of how the use of clear language is diminishing. Right up there with words like: mastery and advanced.

 

[DCBC]

If you're an instructor who will certify through SEI and follow SEI philosophies, you'll likely find SEI more than willing to work with you to get you crossed over.

Just don't be surprised if things move slowly... LOL

 

[Scott L]

Have you guys checked out GUE's recreational manual yet? Quite impressive IMO. 600-700 pages I would guess...

 

[Kingpatzer]

While SEI has a 50 year legacy from the YMCA SCUBA Program, SEI is not YMCA. SEI is a new agency. SEI has had to fund everything from scratch. It has a small staff. SEI instructor trainers, just like instructor trainers from other agencies are trying to make a living and need to make a profit. Asking them to work for free is ridiculous.

I'm not suggesting the staff work for free. I'm suggesting the agency (SEI or others) recognize that spending the cost to penetrate a market will, well, get them into that market.

If addressing quality matters, then find a way to invest in the agency. Spend a few grand to put the agency in a position to garner hundreds of new divers. The costs will be recouped.

I'm using SEI simply because it is one agency with a vocal contingent within this thread without any presence in my area, and as far as I can tell from searching Google, my state.

Plenty of other agencies whose instructors are continually belittling PADI are in the same boat. Insert whichever one you choose. A

Besides, you have no idea what SEI is or is not doing along those lines.

I know that they, along with a host of other agencies, aren't showing up at the major dive shows in our area. I know they aren't marketing in in this area. And I know they, along with a host of other agencies, aren't doing it in numerous other markets as well.

SEI's expansion has a long way to go.

And what of the other agencies?

If you believe in their philosophy, that's where you should be. If you believe in SEI's philosophy, and want to help give people options, send me your contact info and I'm sure we can come up with another option.

PM sent

What is your philosophy?

To share my passion and create the best divers I can working under the limitations I find myself under.

 

[Kingpatzer]

So your philosophy is, in a nutshell, "It sucks, but because no one is fixing it for me, I'm gonna gone along?"

Nope, my philosophy is "do the very best with what you've got."

I spent enough time in the military to recognize that complaining about what I don't have the resources to change isn't going to do me much good.

 

[DCBC]

Have you guys checked out GUE's recreational manual yet? Quite impressive IMO. 600-700 pages I would guess...

Are you referring to the Rec 1 course book?