The perfect IDC / DM program. What does it look like?

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Backkick allows you to face your divers while maintaining a desired separation or closeness, without needing to push on them to prevent entanglement. Guiding involves maneuvering with one or a few divers, and responding to issues underwater that may involve fixing or adjusting their gear or responding to anxiety. If when you get close to them, you keep running into them because the only way you can move is forward, or you have to keep pushing away from them to prevent that, you have added to the problem. Frogkick is just a step before that, and a calmer way to move in the water with out kicking up the bottom.

+1. Seriously! Who wants a DM leading them around who is kicking up the bottom and ruining the viz?

When I DM for OW classes in the pool, I am back finning constantly to stay face to face with a student without us running into each other. Actually, ditto for DM'ing for tech classes. Even in an Adv Nitrox/Deco Procedures/Helitrox class, the first time a student attempts a valve shutdown drill, they pretty much all end up drifting forward as they do it. Some, only a little. Others, a lot. Likewise for shooting an SMB, if they haven't done it (or done it much) before.
 
Frogkick is just a step before that, and a calmer way to move in the water with out kicking up the bottom.

There are plenty of other finning styles that do not kick up the bottom. Why should someone be made to frogkick? I personally find a modified flutter better in some situations. It's all about taste and opinion.

+1. Seriously! Who wants a DM leading them around who is kicking up the bottom and ruining the viz?

Why does someone have to ruin the viz if they are no frogkicking?

When I DM for OW classes in the pool, I am back finning constantly to stay face to face with a student without us running into each other. Actually, ditto for DM'ing for tech classes. Even in an Adv Nitrox/Deco Procedures/Helitrox class, the first time a student attempts a valve shutdown drill, they pretty much all end up drifting forward as they do it. Some, only a little. Others, a lot. Likewise for shooting an SMB, if they haven't done it (or done it much) before.

I don't disagree with much of this - but it applies to you and people like you. A DM in a tropical location won't "DM" on any classes. They will show people around and enjoy a nice lifestyle. I manage plenty of dives where I don't have to backfin.
 
Why does someone have to ruin the viz if they are no frogkicking?



I don't disagree with much of this - but it applies to you and people like you. A DM in a tropical location won't "DM" on any classes. They will show people around and enjoy a nice lifestyle. I manage plenty of dives where I don't have to backfin.

Fair enough. I would have no problem with requiring "non-silting finning technique(s)" instead of specifically frog kick.

So, you're saying a DM program should only have requirements that are appropriate for the place where the DM will actually work? Or only have requirements that would be for working as a guide (but not assisting classes) in a tropical location?

In other words, are you saying that a DM program should not require any more dive skills than what you need, where you work?

Should airplane pilots be exempt from learning about how to deal with icing if they are only going to fly in south FL and the Caribbean, too?
 
Fair enough. I would have no problem with requiring "non-silting finning technique(s)" instead of specifically frog kick.

So, you're saying a DM program should only have requirements that are appropriate for the place where the DM will actually work? Or only have requirements that would be for working as a guide (but not assisting classes) in a tropical location?

In other words, are you saying that a DM program should not require any more dive skills than what you need, where you work?

Should airplane pilots be exempt from learning about how to deal with icing if they are only going to fly in south FL and the Caribbean, too?

I'm saying that certain skills are more important depending on where you work or want to work. I need a drysuit. I don't think it's appropriate for others to have to use one or be competent in doing so to become a DM. I also find using a twinset useful but I don't think that should be mandated either.

I think the key thing to remember is that the standards are the minimum that can be accepted. There is nothing stopping any instructor adding additional information/training.

I don't know about airplane pilot training. However a DM ticket is closer to being the person who makes drinks for the pilot and I don't think they need to know how to fly the plane.
 
I would be more than happy to be a difficult "student" if you'd like.....
 
I'm saying that certain skills are more important depending on where you work or want to work. I need a drysuit. I don't think it's appropriate for others to have to use one or be competent in doing so to become a DM. I also find using a twinset useful but I don't think that should be mandated either

Drysuit and doubles seem to me to be equipment skills. Not the same thing as dive skills like specific finning techniques.

Buoyancy control is also a dive skill, not an equipment skill. If a DM is only ever going to lead dives on deeper sites, buoyancy control is much easier (than in shallow water). Does that mean there should be no requirement for a DM to have anything more than the most rudimentary buoyancy control? Because not all DMs dive where top-notch buoyancy control is needed?
 
Very rarely do I agree with stuartv, but here he's hit the nail on the head.
 
I don't know about airplane pilot training. However a DM ticket is closer to being the person who makes drinks for the pilot and I don't think they need to know how to fly the plane.

A DM cert says you are certified to help an instructor as they are teaching a class. And to lead certified divers on dives. Some agencies cede even more responsibility to a DM.

That means (to me) that a DM has some responsibility to provide effective dive planning, rescue, first aid, and CPR skills when needed.

The DM may not need to know how to fly the plane, but they at least need to know how to get it off the ground and how to land it.
 
I don't know about airplane pilot training. However a DM ticket is closer to being the person who makes drinks for the pilot and I don't think they need to know how to fly the plane.
I'm fairly sure DMs are cleared to take random OW people on their first night/boat/beach/surf dive if asked, and do refresher classes. Sounds a lot like you know, showing people things, almost as if teaching. And they have to get them back to shore safely, reliably. Sounds more than making drinks.

The DM may not need to know how to fly the plane, but they at least need to know how to get it off the ground and how to land it.
That whole takeoff/land is I understand among the riskier parts...:). Sure DM's do not need to do the first 'here is how you breath, recover mask/regs, and ascend' training, but they might guide divers who had horrid versions of that, or do refresher training for them. And there is the whole, bring them safely back to shore thing.

Sure, its all easy if nothing goes wrong, but that is not the limit of your job.

I think the list for a good tropics DM is fairly long. Sure, doubles and dry do not need to be on it.
 
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Why does someone have to ruin the viz if they are no frogkicking?
Yes, there are other non-silting options. My point was more on frog as a stepping stone and a calm kick, with extra application as a non-silting kick.

You need back kick and helicopter to position yourself in the water relative to a troubled student/diver. To do those and not do frog is a bit silly, particularly as it is a good stepping stone to them. It would seem extra work to use flutter for slow forward motion, and transition back and forth to helicopter and back for rotation and reverse. Also frog leaves you calm and stable in the water, while slow flutter seems to rock me side to side, which is not as calm a view for me for my divers.
 

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