The Overhead Question

[Genesis]

Yep.

And the funny thing is, if you read the NSS or NACD Cave Manuals, a big part of their "class" is simply referring to the "Ten Commandments" as preached by Sheck.

And THAT is a much smaller book..... yet a careful analysis of all the bluster about "formal overhead training" leaves you with the unmistakeable conclusion that in reality Sheck's Blueprint is the "real deal" - all the rest is more about trying to split what should be one class into three or four (and charging for them commensurately.)

 

[MikeFerrara]

And the funny thing is, if you read the NSS or NACD Cave Manuals, a big part of their "class" is simply referring to the "Ten Commandments" as preached by Sheck.

And THAT is a much smaller book..... yet a careful analysis of all the bluster about "formal overhead training" leaves you with the unmistakeable conclusion that in reality Sheck's Blueprint is the "real deal" - all the rest is more about trying to split what should be one class into three or four (and charging for them commensurately.)

You really nee to read the literature of the NACD and the NSS-CDS because you haven't clue what you are talking about.

The charters of both organizations is in fact not to promote cave diving at all but only to provide training to divers who insist on going in caves. I don't doubt that there are instructors taking a different approach but the policies of the agencies haven't changed. The other goals of these agencies is protecting the caves through exploration, public awareness ect. They don't care if they sell you a class or not.

Sheck's book only delt with accident analysis. The books of the NACD and the NSS deal with many subjects like line techniques, emergency procedures, equipment configuration, flora and fauna, cave formation, types of carst windows and cave conservation.

Cave training can be done in one class. It requires 15 or 16 cave dives at minimum regardless whether you split up into 4 classes or do it in 1. The bulk of the new "material is presented in the cavern class. The bulk of the experience is gained in the rest of the training.

However, most of the worlds caves aren't controled by any one other than who ever owns the land and you don't need cave training to get in them. Within just a few miles of where you live there are tons of caves and no one will stop you from diving them.

If you do know more about this than the NACD and the NSS you can get yourself elected to the BOD of either or both and make it the way you want it. In both organizations officers are nominated and elected from the membership.

 

[Genesis]

Not the point Mike.

Nowhere did I say that the NACD and NSS/CDS exist to "promote" cave diving.

I said that the accident analysis - the mantra of "safe cave diving" - all comes back to Sheck's "10 Commandments" - again and again and again.

So does accident analysis in the unwashed world (that is, what really happens.)

You're correct, in that most of the new techniques are learned in Cavern - indeed, the differences between Intro/Apprentice/Full are very slight. Jumps/gaps/traverses/circuits are about it, really, between the syllabus' of the three.

So from where I sit the entire idea of breaking up the classes is rather disingenuous. Either you follow the rules or you don't. Other than a very few "oddball" situations (like a cave literally collapsing on you while you're in it!) virtually all of the fatalities while cave diving can be traced to a violation of one of the cardinal rules - whether you're formally trained or not.

As for the tons of caves near where I live, got some coords?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Actually, if you read the stats on those deaths, it always seems to come down to a violation of the same basic rules.

The rules aren't the class.... if they were, you could show up, test on "Sheck's Rules", and get the card. Of course then there'd be this howl and scream from the agencies.

They are blatently hypocritical on this account - indeed, a lot of their bookwork is all about how to avoid dying (good), but they pointedly come back to, again and again, violations of those basic rules!

The class is about gaining experience applying those rules to actual dive planning and execution. The value is that there is an experienced cave diver (instructor there to bail you out when you make mistakes and the vast majority do make them.

It takes about 8 seconds to memorize the rules. For instance it seems rather simple to say that you need a continuous line to the surface. That's simple right? But it's a little more complicated when it means intersections, getting a team accross gaps or when there's a loss of visability and or some other problem. It's also a little more complex when planning cercuits or traverses. It's also a little more comples when searching for a team member who is lost off the line or when a line is broken.

The class is also about edicate. How to use markers to maintain your own path to the surface without placing conflicting directional information on the line that could complicate things for other divers. How to run a line into a system without messing up another team who already has one there.

As a side note, at one time the cave community was able to boast that ALL the divers who had dived in cvaes weren't cave trained. That has changes a bit and we seem to be seeing more trained cave divers being killed in caves. While they have cave training they seem to be diving beyond their experience/training. An example might be the recent death in Little River. Two guys went in on scooters. There was a siltout and the line was lost. One diver found the line and made his way out but feared he didn't have the gas to search for his buddy (a family member). The other diver apparantly found the line but didn't have enough gas to make it out.

All these things like having to do a search for a buddy or the line make simple rules like the rule of thirds suddenly more complex in application. Any change of course from the way you went on the way in just doesn't fit the rule of thirds very well.

 

[MikeFerrara]

We crossed posts but I addressed some ways simple rule can become complex in application in my last post.

and also as I mentioned, staying alive is only part of the training. Protecting and understanding the cave is also there. That's because of the need to protect the cave from the diver.

 

[Genesis]

I read the report on the Little River fatality you are referring to.

Again, it comes down to a violation of the rules. If you're going to do a dive with a scooter then you must be able to make it out without the scooter from max penetration, including enough reserve gas for a CF at that point.

If you scooter in on one third you almost certainly cannot swim out on the remaining two thirds, unless you've got a hell of a flow coming out. Are you towing a SECOND scooter? Gee, that's a lot of faith you're putting into something electrically-powered that you're going to intentionally dunk in the water, eh? Me thinks you need to be dropping some stage bottles "just in case" no? Pretty obvious if you think about what you're doing.

The point of thirds when with a buddy is that your buddy has "dibs" on your other third (and in reality, you ought to keep a bit more, and you have to compute thirds on the biggest hoover and smallest gas capacity between you.) The point of thirds when solo is that you have TWICE the gas you went in with to exit. Of course even that one breaks down if you go diving in a siphon - yet more to think about.

Line markers are simple - don't F@#@ with someone ELSE'S markers. Even if you think they're "wrong". Don't cross other teams' lines (duh.) Searching for the line isn't complex - its simple geometry. Cover the outside of where the line MUST BE geometrically with a loop and you will find it every time. You CANNOT fail to find it - again, its geometry, not rocket science.

99% of this stuff is common sense (yeah, I know, its not all that common.)

I agree that if you can't stay off the cave (floor, ceiling, etc) you have no business in there, and I understand that damage, once done, is permanent. No argument there at all. But that is something that you should be qualified for at the "cavern" level..... damage done there is permanent too.

I'm not trying to bust your chops Mike... and perhaps most of what's common sense isn't obvious to a lot of people. But you gotta wonder - how do they manage to do some relatively simple things in life if its not.....

 

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis, I'm not really trying to convince you I'm just explaining the logic and what's involved. Some people could read the book or just make it up as they go and some can't do it at all. There are plenty of caves where a person can do what they want.

You're right none of this is rocket science but when it's real may not be the best time to try it for the first time for some.

Common sense or not, divers who skip cave training don't seem to have a very good record in caves. I'd rather more divers just forget about caves and go to the Caribbean.

 

[Genesis]

There aren't that many people who cack themselves diving from all causes Mike.

And as cave diving has increased in popularity, we've started to see more and more people with training "lose it." And in virtually every case, it comes back to ignoring the basics..... unfortunately.

I don't know if that's an indictment of the training (e.g. they were giving a card they didn't earn, and Darwin got 'em) or if its just a matter of complacency - you do 100, 200, or 1000 dives and nothing goes wrong, so you start to "shave" the rules - and that's when Murphy pays a visit.

 

[MikeFerrara]

There aren't that many people who cack themselves diving from all causes Mike.

And as cave diving has increased in popularity, we've started to see more and more people with training "lose it." And in virtually every case, it comes back to ignoring the basics..... unfortunately.

Yes always the basics. All you have to do is breath and ascend slow enough and you'll live. You're over simplifying it though. Go to the CDF and read through some of the IRAP posts.

I don't know if that's an indictment of the training (e.g. they were giving a card they didn't earn, and Darwin got 'em) or if its just a matter of complacency - you do 100, 200, or 1000 dives and nothing goes wrong, so you start to "shave" the rules - and that's when Murphy pays a visit.

Some are of the opinion that many of these divers have just gone too far too fast. Take a look at the recent Roubidoux fatality. Rhat's a good example.

It's easy enough to follow a line until somebodies scooter prop eats it or you're zipping down the tunnel and the line makes a sharp turn (behind a rock) and you mistakenly follow to line that continues streight ahead without ever seeing the gap. You turn the dive, follow the line back but come to a gap that you didn't pass on the way in. Now which line?

I know just don't do it right? My point is that you can't describe 16 dives of cave training and the whole text a one page list of the rules of accident analysis.

 

[Genesis]

.....
Some are of the opinion that many of these divers have just gone too far too fast. Take a look at the recent Roubidoux fatality. Rhat's a good example.

It's easy enough to follow a line until somebodies scooter prop eats it or you're zipping down the tunnel and the line makes a sharp turn (behind a rock) and you mistakenly follow to line that continues streight ahead without ever seeing the gap. You turn the dive, follow the line back but come to a gap that you didn't pass on the way in. Now which line?

I know just don't do it right? My point is that you can't describe 16 dives of cave training and the whole text a one page list of the rules of accident analysis.

I don't think 16 dives is enough to matter that much, other than drilling into your head the rules. Scooter props eating line are very nice and all, but if you don't have control of your scooter you shouldn't have it in there.

Nor should you decide that since you've never had anything go wrong you can take "thirds" and redefine it to "half + 200psi".

You can play that game a hundred times and not get bit - and then one time......