The "other" end of the DIR question

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The 13 cf pony is/would be my choice because it calculates to a floor of 150 fsw (for me), which is slightly beyond my personal limits.

I think the point would be if you would do it on a single 80 your fine, no deco or overhead etc. The 13cu. ft. would be the equal of 500psi in a single 80 and good enough to get your buns to the surface and a safety stop. From there on its as was said before a slung40 or doubles etc
 
There is NO WAY 500 psi in an AL80 (13 cf) is enough to get buns to the surface, ESPECIALLY with a safety stop, from 150 feet.

Again - real basic stuff here folks. Assume 33ft/min ascent rate - or one atm per minute.

In one minute, from 155 to 132 feet, you will have consumed 5.5 cf of air (average depth = 5.5 atm x SAC of 1.)

In the next minute, from 132 to 99 (average depth, 4.5 atm) you will have consumed 4.5 cf of air.

From 99 feet to 66 feet, you have an average depth of 3.5 atm, so therefore - yes, 3.5cf of air.

Uh oh! 5.5 + 4.5 + 3.5 = 13.5 cubic feet. You just ran out of air at 70 feet. How do you intend on getting to 15 feet and waiting for three minutes now?

OK, you say - I'm going to blur by at 66 feet per minute! Ha! I'll show you! OK - well, at 66 feet per minute, your first minute is going to average 5 atmospheres. That's 5 cu feet of gas. Your next minute is going to average 3 atmospheres, which is 3 cubic feet. (8 cubic feet so far. Your SPG now reads 128 psi.) Now you're going to spend 3 minutes (or more, considering the ascent you just pulled off) at 15 feet, or 1.5 atm. There's your remaining gas, but chances are good you're going to have to pull an Emergency Swimming Ascent to hit the surface, through the area with the greatest pressure differential.

This also doesn't factor in the ascent from 33 feet to 15 feet, or any time spent at depth actually fixing the problem at hand.
 
A With your fine forensic analy if your using a 80 as I said your in my opinion stretching it just to go wander at 155
B You would know you will need to conserve on the way up so I wonder if 1 cube/min would be necessary and dont think 30fpm would be either.
C. A safty stop definitely would be a nice thing, and would probably have something left as you said and even if a esa was required from 15ft, its been done before.
D My thoughts are not along what I would need but someone less experienced to get out with, and I have no problems with that being sufficient.
 
Boogie711:
Helmuth, you're wrong buddy.

You wrote "13 cf / 1 cf/min = 13 min - 3 min safety = 10 min * 30 ft / min = 300' floor. Using a pesimistic view of having 2x the requirements for a greater margin of safety, that would make the floor 150'. (anyway, that's my thinking)".

Your math assumes that a SAC of 1cf is the same as 1cf at depth. Nope. You've ignored the pressure factor. A SAC of 1cf at surface means in that one minute, a diver would breath:

2cf in one minute at 33 feet, or,
3cf in one minute at 66 feet, or,
4cf in one minute at 99 feet, or,
5cf in one minute at 132 feet, or
6cf in one minute at 155 feet.

So, with a 13 cf bottle at 150 feet, assuming no time needed to fix anything, at a 33fpm ascent rate, you would burn 5 cf in the first minute. 4 in the second minute, and uh oh - you're out of air at about, oh - 66 feet.

A 3.0 spare air is even more ridiculous. Hand it off at 100 feet to a diver, and he bolts to the surface at 60 fpm, and he still runs out of air with about 30 feet to go.

OK - as I was typing my reply, I see what you are saying. Please shed more light on this (if necessary).

Applied -

IE - 150 fsw floor (assuming a safe assent with stop and a SAC rate of 1.0 cf/min )

5.84 ATM (150 fsw) * 0.6 min * 1.0 = 3.5 cf air used from 150 -> 132 fsw
5.0 ATM (132 fsw) * 1.1 min * 1.0 = 5.5 cf air used from 132 -> 99 fsw
4.0 ATM (99 fsw) * 1.1 min * 1.0 = 4.4 cf air used from 99 -> 66 fsw
3.0 ATM (66 fsw) * 1.1 min * 1.0 = 3.3 cf air used from 66 -> 33 fsw
2.0 ATM (33 fsw) * 0.4 min * 1.0 = 0.8 cf air used from 33 -> 20 fsw (saftey stop)
1.6 ATM (20 fsw) * 3.6 min * 1.0 = 5.76 cf air used at safety stop to surface

Total air required = 23.2 cf air supply.

So my 13 cf pony is "short" :11:
 
fishnchips:
I am really curious, and eager to learn.... I could not come to a conclusion that there is a particular "TYPE" of person that carry Spare Air. BUt You know for sure the type of person who's likely to carry a Spare Air is going to be relatively inexperienced, and with a relatively high SAC rate, and it's safe for you to say that in an emergency their SAC could easily exceed 1 CF per minute? Really? Incredible!! WOW!! :dropmouth You can come to this conclusion just by seeing someone carrying spare air? :god: How do you do that? Please please please teach me. Is there a book I can read or meditation or just plain silly hitting my head with a hammer over and over and over..... :bonk:

I like this board...... always learn something new! :wave-smil

Now, I'm sure there are exceptions out there ... and granted that the vast majority of my experience is limited to the Pac NW where we may do things a bit differently than the rest of the world ... so take my comments in that perspective.

However, in my experience there are two types of divers who wear Spare Air ... the instructor who works for a shop who sells them, and that instructor's students.

An experienced diver ... by virtue of gaining knowledge through experience ... will usually discover that there are more effective ways to approach the potential OOA emergency. Pony bottles are quite popular here, for example ... the vast majority being 19 CF. If you're going to 100 fsw, that's generally considered a nominal size. A 3 CF bottle simply doesn't buy you much, except the possibility of reaching adequate depth for an ESA. Others elect to use doubles ... especially if they're going to be doing deep dives on ships. However, the fundamental best way to handle said emergencies ... and the one that skilled divers DIR and non-DIR alike will always adopt ... is simply to practice good buddy skills and choose their buddies with care.

It's the inexperienced diver ... who hasn't yet had the opportunity to learn those skills ... who is most likely to see value in carrying a Spare Air.

The problem I had with your story is that, if these guys were really DIR (as opposed to divers who just dressed the part), they would've known better than to allow themselves to get into this kind of situation in the first place. That's a fundamental part of the training that makes someone a DIR diver. That someone does run out of air at that depth is a serious clue that they haven't actually been through the training.

Furthermore, they'd have ... in the process of becoming DIR ... learned how to ascend in a controlled manner. So even if they were sharing air it's unlikely that they'd be doing so in the manner you described.

Finally ... while any diver can panic under the right circumstances, it's less likely if you've trained and practiced how to deal with the circumstance in question. And of all the divers I know and associate with ... the DIR divers are the most likely to get out and practice how to handle said emergency situations till a controlled response becomes almost as natural as walking. It's just part of the culture.

For those reasons, I have to believe that you were not observing DIR divers ... regardless of the gear they were wearing.

As to my assumption about SAC calculation in an emergency ... perhaps you should read a book, or take a course. Doesn't have to be DIR ... any agency's Advanced Nitrox class will do ..

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
jhelmuth:
OK - as I was typing my reply, I see what you are saying. Please shed more light on this (if necessary).

Applied -

IE - 150 fsw floor (assuming a safe assent with stop and a SAC rate of 1.0 cf/min )

5.84 ATM (150 fsw) * 0.6 min * 1.0 = 3.5 cf air used from 150 -> 132 fsw
5.0 ATM (132 fsw) * 1.1 min * 1.0 = 5.5 cf air used from 132 -> 99 fsw
4.0 ATM (99 fsw) * 1.1 min * 1.0 = 4.4 cf air used from 99 -> 66 fsw
3.0 ATM (66 fsw) * 1.1 min * 1.0 = 3.3 cf air used from 66 -> 33 fsw
2.0 ATM (33 fsw) * 0.4 min * 1.0 = 0.8 cf air used from 33 -> 20 fsw (saftey stop)
1.6 ATM (20 fsw) * 3.6 min * 1.0 = 5.76 cf air used at safety stop to surface

Total air required = 23.2 cf air supply.

So my 13 cf pony is "short" :11:

OK, I am risking sounding really stupid, but am kinda curious about a slight variation on this scenario. What if you did an ESA from 150 to 75 and didn't take a breath off of your 13cf tank until you reached 75fsw. Now this makes the major assumption that you have the skills to control your ascent and slow to 30 fpm by 75fsw. Allowing for a SAC of 2.0 from 75-66 while you slow down the usage looks like this.

3.27 ATM (75 fsw) * 0.3 min * 2.0 = 1.96 cf air used from 75 -> 66 fsw
3.0 ATM (66 fsw) * 1.1 min * 1.0 = 3.3 cf air used from 66 -> 33 fsw
2.0 ATM (33 fsw) * 0.4 min * 1.0 = 0.8 cf air used from 33 -> 20 fsw (saftey stop)
1.6 ATM (20 fsw) * 3.6 min * 1.0 = 5.76 cf air used at safety stop to surface

Total air required = 11.84 cf air supply -- This leaves you with the 1cf you probably used at depth when you discovered that your back gas failed...

Disclosure: I am still a novice diver, and really don't know what I am talking about, I am posting this because I have never seen anyone address the concept of doing an ESA from depth before breathing on your PONY. I have seen many posts that reverse this, breathing the tank empty then ESA through the most significant pressure changes. This is not something I would like to try, but I would rather have 13 CF than nothing. I would rather have 30cf than 13, and I would rather have isolated doubles than a pony. In reality, I wouldn't dive to 150 without a good buddy and isolated doubles (and a heck of a lot more training). But I am curious if all I had was a small pony, would it make any sense to use it in this manner.
 
rjens:
OK, I am risking sounding really stupid, but am kinda curious about a slight variation on this scenario. What if you did an ESA from 150 to 75 and didn't take a breath off of your 13cf tank until you reached 75fsw. Now this makes the major assumption that you have the skills to control your ascent and slow to 30 fpm by 75fsw.

Because that's a 2 and a half minute breath hold when you started OOA in the first place.

If you're diving at those depths and you think you need a spare gas source that isn't your buddy, IMO you should either go to doubles or carry something with enough gas to get you and your buddy SAFELY up from that depth. This means at LEAST an Al 40. If you can't account for the sort of scenario where you and your buddy need to ascend from the max depth off of whatever one of you has left, with what you're carrying, you shouldn't be doing that dive.
 
jonnythan:
If you're diving at those depths and you think you need a spare gas source that isn't your buddy, IMO you should either go to doubles or carry something with enough gas to get you and your buddy SAFELY up from that depth. This means at LEAST an Al 40. If you can't account for the sort of scenario where you and your buddy need to ascend from the max depth off of whatever one of you has left, with what you're carrying, you shouldn't be doing that dive.

Agreed, in fact I said this in my post, And I admitted up front that this may be a stupid question...

However, It wouldn't be a 2 1/2 minute breathhold, as 1) I wouldn't be holding my breath, 2) I would be exhaling, which would be decreasing the CO2 in my system which would be reducing the urgency to take a breath and 3) I would be ascending closer to 60-75 fpm so more likely 1 minute.

I have read about at least one 90fsw ESA (DrBill's -- he now dives with a 30cf pony when diving solo) so I know it can be done.

My real question is if I am at depth, and I know that the pressure differential changes the least moving from 6-4 atmospheres, and it takes less air to fill mhy lungs at 4 atmospheres than it does at 6 why shouldn't I do an ESA from 6 to 4 then start breathing off my limited tank??? (be it a 13 or 40cf)
 
rjens:
Agreed, in fact I said this in my post, And I admitted up front that this may be a stupid question...

However, It wouldn't be a 2 1/2 minute breathhold, as 1) I wouldn't be holding my breath, 2) I would be exhaling, which would be decreasing the CO2 in my system which would be reducing the urgency to take a breath and

If I remember my physiology, it's the partial pressure of CO2 in your lungs.. so exhaling doesn't really matter.


rjens:
3) I would be ascending closer to 60-75 fpm so more likely 1 minute.

I have read about at least one 90fsw ESA (DrBill's -- he now dives with a 30cf pony when diving solo) so I know it can be done.

My real question is if I am at depth, and I know that the pressure differential changes the least moving from 6-4 atmospheres, and it takes less air to fill mhy lungs at 4 atmospheres than it does at 6 why shouldn't I do an ESA from 6 to 4 then start breathing off my limited tank??? (be it a 13 or 40cf)

You shouldn't do the ESA (and more importantly shouldn't plan for it) because if you find yourself out of gas at 150 feet, you want air. You don't want to kick like hell for the surface. ESA's are an absolute last resort. You're going to be out of air already, and you want to just.. hold it for a minute? That's your dive plan? "Oh, if I run out of gas I'll just hold it for 60 seconds while I ascend 75 feet. You do the same, we'll be OK."
 
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