The "other" end of the DIR question

[gj62]

GJ - with respect, you're starting to remind me of Genesis or something. Someone who clearly isn't DIR should probably best answer those sorts of questions, don't you think?

It's obvious you disagree with the system and mentality - which is your right. So leave it alone already. I believe any of your points have been made, and my concern is that if you continue to poke and prod you're just going to let this escalate into something which benefits nobody.

"Volunteering" to answer questions like that clearly shows YOUR bias, and serves no benefit.

Gosh Boogs, did I hit a nerve?

1) If you read Wijbrandus' quote, he asked for me or MHK to ring in on that question, and
2) In a thread that is specifically about why people choose to *NOT* follow DIR, I thought engaging in this conversation (and not namecalling, and not disparaging the other party) was what this board is all about? I quoted a well-known and accepted expert (MHK) when responding.

So, I apologize if you think I was off the mark or incorrect, but I urge you take that up with an expert on DIR, like MHK...

 

[MHK]

MHK - I tried to be very careful when I indicated that what you said was that *you*, a DIR diver, would not dive with a non-DIR diver - I think I do have that correct, right?

So my reply to Wijbrandus stating that he was wrong was also correct -

Most DIR divers would elect to not dive, if the only choice was a non-DIR buddy... That is definitely the impression I get, at least when I read posts on this board. Out on the blue - who knows...

I think that's a fair assessment. But in all fairness, I do many DIR Demo's around the country and often times will get in the water with divers that come to the Demo to demosntrate skills or to video tape their skills but I usually limit my depth to 20' and limit the amount of students to a 3:1 instructor to diver ratio.

Hope that helps

 

[lamont]

If you read my posts - I am most specifically not bashing the DIR way. My original statements were to the effect that DIR certainly has a time and place, but it does not add any appreciable value (IMO) to non-technical diving situations.

As a beginning recreational OW diver and a beginning DIR diver, I don't see how this statement is correct. Most of the skills that DIR teaches such as bouyancy control, S-Drills while neutral, etc are clearly applicable to rec diving. While donating a long host may not be strictly necessary for open water, there are clear benfits to having an octo on a bungeed necklace even in rec diving (foremost being that you can quickly find it). As far as gear placement goes, things like DIR placement of the depth gauge/computer on the right hand so that you can watch it while you control your bouyancy is beneficial in the rec environment. I'm also very impressed with the engineering and workmanship of my eclipse BP/W and with the trim that it affords. Those are just a few of the advantages of DIR for rec open water that I can think of off the top of my head.

Having said that, I don't care in open water if someone else dives PADI OW-style, just as long as they've got a reasonably safe attitude. I don't care if someone else doesn't find any benefit in DIR for OW diving. However, the blanket statement that DIR doesn't have any benefit for OW diving I think is wrong, because I've certainly found benefit.

 

[Diver0001]

I think this answer varies from one diver to the next. This thread has been somewhat interesting and somehwat frustrating in some respects. By that I mean, we have said on atleast 5 seperate occasions that we respect anyone's right to dive anyway they see fit, but yet some still conclude that we say that DIR is the only way to dive.

Well....DUUUHH..

Mike, the reason is because people can't reconcile this statement

WE DON'T CARE HOW ANYONE ELSE DIVES AND WE FULLY RECOGNIZE ALTERNATIVE DIVING STYLES OTHER THEN [sic] DIR

with this one

What those of us that have adopted DIR have determined is that the diving protocols associated with DIR principles are at the level we accept and any deviation poses, for us, and unncessary and unacceptable level of increased risk.

If you want to make the issue clear then you have to stop with this kind of double-speak. Either it's OK or it's not. JJ is much clearer about it than you are. He simply says (I'm paraphrasing) I don't care what you do but divers who dive with ME do it MY way

Clear. Simple. He's totally given up on the rest and if you want to dive with him then you dive DIR. No ambiguity there.

You may find that arrogant and devoid of the respect to which you do lip-service but you will not find it ambiguous.

Your problem is you want people to like you which leaves you talking in circles and conundrums and creating confusion and irriation where ever you go. Were you aware of that?

R..

 

[Mako Mark]

Brian,

If they're forbidden to offer it through the shop then what stops them from "freelancing" out of the back of a truck?

R..

Nothing at all.

 

[gj62]

As a beginning recreational OW diver and a beginning DIR diver, I don't see how this statement is correct. Most of the skills that DIR teaches such as bouyancy control, S-Drills while neutral, etc are clearly applicable to rec diving. While donating a long host may not be strictly necessary for open water, there are clear benfits to having an octo on a bungeed necklace even in rec diving (foremost being that you can quickly find it). As far as gear placement goes, things like DIR placement of the depth gauge/computer on the right hand so that you can watch it while you control your bouyancy is beneficial in the rec environment. I'm also very impressed with the engineering and workmanship of my eclipse BP/W and with the trim that it affords. Those are just a few of the advantages of DIR for rec open water that I can think of off the top of my head.

Having said that, I don't care in open water if someone else dives PADI OW-style, just as long as they've got a reasonably safe attitude. I don't care if someone else doesn't find any benefit in DIR for OW diving. However, the blanket statement that DIR doesn't have any benefit for OW diving I think is wrong, because I've certainly found benefit.

I respect your opinion. After diving for 20+ years, I've got good trim, can find darn near any piece of gear that I put on topside, and manage to read my guages and control my bouyancy just fine. All this, and not DIR too... Maybe there is more than 1 way to accomplish something?

I also like my jacket BC, which is also almost 20 years old and has 1000+ dives on it, so I can say I am impressed with its engineering and workmanship.

BTW - I'll dive with you, but I know several DIR divers that won't dive with me because I'm not rigged right (but they'll ride to the beach in my car)...

 

[Diver0001]

As a beginning recreational OW diver and a beginning DIR diver, I don't see how this statement is correct. Most of the skills that DIR teaches such as bouyancy control, S-Drills while neutral, etc are clearly applicable to rec diving. While donating a long host may not be strictly necessary for open water, there are clear benfits to having an octo on a bungeed necklace even in rec diving (foremost being that you can quickly find it). As far as gear placement goes, things like DIR placement of the depth gauge/computer on the right hand so that you can watch it while you control your bouyancy is beneficial in the rec environment. I'm also very impressed with the engineering and workmanship of my eclipse BP/W and with the trim that it affords. Those are just a few of the advantages of DIR for rec open water that I can think of off the top of my head.

Having said that, I don't care in open water if someone else dives PADI OW-style, just as long as they've got a reasonably safe attitude. I don't care if someone else doesn't find any benefit in DIR for OW diving. However, the blanket statement that DIR doesn't have any benefit for OW diving I think is wrong, because I've certainly found benefit.

I think he may have been referring to some statements from prominent DIR divers the the whole system is a balanced holistic thing that easily comes unraveled if you don't implement everything about it. Hence the 'all or nothing' comments in a couple of earlier posts. Whether that's true or not or whether or not that's still the case a couple of years on in the development of the philosophy I can't say.

Personally I think there is fertile ground for discussion in the middle there somewhere......

R..

 

[JohnF]

MHK -

Regarding equipment sales, since JJ is the head of both GUE and Halcyon, there is more than a little reason to suspect that decisions at GUE might be made to benefit Halcyon. If someone said, "Do it my way", and the *primary* source for the equipment needed was run by that person, it is more than natural to assume that there is a conflict of interest at hand. Especially when the company takes action against the competition.

...

I'll defer to Mike Kane's (and some of the Cave Country old timers') experience on this one, but it seems to me that Halcyon gear evolved in response to the needs and wants of Hogarthian style divers, so it seems only reasonable that Halcyon gear would be the first choice of most DIR divers.

However, it would appear there are now a few more companies offering equipment targeting the DIR market so, provided the quality is comparable, perhaps the preponderance of Halcyon gear in the DIR camp will begin to dwindle.

JohnF

 

[lamont]

I respect your opinion. After diving for 20+ years, I've got good trim, can find darn near any piece of gear that I put on topside, and manage to read my guages and control my bouyancy just fine. All this, and not DIR too... Maybe there is more than 1 way to accomplish something?

I also like my jacket BC, which is also almost 20 years old and has 1000+ dives on it, so I can say I am impressed with its engineering and workmanship.

BTW - I'll dive with you, but I know several DIR divers that won't dive with me because I'm not rigged right (but they'll ride to the beach in my car)...

Yes, and lets carefully note that I didn't say that a DIR-F course was the only way to learn bouyancy skills, or that a BP/W was the only way people should dive, or even that the long hose is necessary in OW diving. All I said was that I found benefit. I like learning DIR gear, principles and training and applying that to open water diving. My beliefs in this regard are very focused around myself and what I find enjoyable and useful.

As far as the DIR divers that won't dive with you. Thats their choice to dive DIR with the system that they've adopted and doesn't necessarily reflect in any way on you, other than you dive differently. They obviously want to dive with people who have the same equipment and training as they do.

Also as far as I'm concerned if they do act like it necessarily reflects badly on you and that you're a 'stroke' thats just their opinion and not necessarily DIR in any way. So far, actually, the one major issue that I have with the DIR community is the use of that word and the attitude that surrounds it. But as far as I'm concerned I can take DIR and leave that attitude behind.

 

[lamont]

I think he may have been referring to some statements from prominent DIR divers the the whole system is a balanced holistic thing that easily comes unraveled if you don't implement everything about it. Hence the 'all or nothing' comments in a couple of earlier posts. Whether that's true or not or whether or not that's still the case a couple of years on in the development of the philosophy I can't say.

Personally I think there is fertile ground for discussion in the middle there somewhere......

R..

But DIR is a balanced holistic system that easily comes unravelled if you don't implement everything about it. That doesn't mean that its the only way to dive, or the only way to dive safely. But it is the only way to dive if you're going to dive DIR.

If I'm ever contemplating being in a silt-out in some cave system 5 miles from air, I'm going to be demanding that everyone I dive with be DIR precisely because I want the holistic system. Personally, though, in 60 fsw of open water, I'm okay with making a conscious choice to not dive DIR and just make sure that my dive buddy has a safe attitude (but thereby knowing that I'm not actually diving DIR and accepting the consequences). Other people may decide to dive DIR all the time (and thereby diving only with other DIR divers) and that's their choice -- you shouldn't feel threatened by that.