The long hose fallacies

[jeckyll]

It seems that every few threads on scubaboard, you run into the inevitable argument. The 'established masses' vs. the 'elitist longhosers'.

I thought I'd take a few minutes to run through some of the standard points that seem to get raised again and again, to save everyone some time. Feel free to refer back and just link to this post. Maybe it will streamline the whole argument process.

Before that happens though, I think that the focus is much too often on individual pieces of gear and unfortunately very few people seem to be willing to take the time to work out how different parts actually fit together. The long hose doesn't stand on it's own, it's part of a greater set of pieces of gear that together work in providing a system.

But I don't want to digress to far, I figure by having this much text up front I've already alienated the majority of the long hose opponents, actually, I'm sure many have skipped straight down to the reply button to, yet again, cover the same ground.

So onto the points:

1) The long hose is for tech divers / cave divers (alternately, experienced divers):
A: Well, not really. Its part of a system that typically involved utilizing a backplate & wing assembly and can be worn by people fresh out of OW courses. I think I switched to my setup at dive 6.

2) The long hose will get tangled around your neck and strangle you:
A: Once someone shows you how to use the long hose (approx 5 minutes for the really slow learners in the crowd) you'll realize that it is not wrapped around your neck.

3) The long hose will get caught on stuff on giant stride / back roll entries (often followed by some description about how that will end the diving day due to damaged equipment):
A: A properly stowed long hose (lesson included in the 5 minutes from #2) will do no such thing. If anything due to the streamlining it will be less likely to catch anything, especially when we compare the long hose w/ bungeed secondary to a nice dangly octopus setup.

4) The long hose is harder to breath:
A: I have no empirical data on this. I've can only speak to my own rig, and can't tell the difference of the reg on the 7 ft hose and the reg on the short hose under my neck (same reg). That and some real serious diving had been done with long hoses ... probably safe to ignore this one, especially for recreational depths.

5) Your buddy won't know how it works:
A: Well how do we find out? By having that little pre-dive discussion and gear familiarization. It's not the only setup that requires providing the primary reg to an OOA diver, Air2's etc require it as well. And given the plethora of options for how to stow an octo (including the oh so wonderful "in the pocket or dragging in the dirt behind the diver" methods) this really needs to be part of every discussion, no?

6) A long hose will make a OOA diver be 7 feet away from you! (this is a big one to many folks):
A: Last time I checked, the hose is flexible. A diver _could_ be up to 7 feet away. But when I was taught how to handle OOA's (the PADI way no less), it involved providing the airsource and getting a good hold on your buddies BC to control the situation. I have no problem doing this. Note: This argument is often carried into wonderful detail involving the poor unfortunate long hose diver, being dragged up to the surface by the OOA buddy and unable to control the ascent because, of course, the buddy is 7 feet away. I think the more pertinent question would be why the buddy was allowed to run OOA...

7) DIR / GUE says to use a 5 foot hose in open water!
A: Well first off, I never said I was DIR. Couldn't really, never took a DIR type course. Second, I believe at some point that was changed and that is reflected on GUE's site. The 7 footer routes just fine on my setup. Finally, why is it important to the long hose opponent? Aren't you going to be upset either way? So is this just a way of saying "You're not doing it right". You better start reading #7 again. Rinse then repeat.

8) We dove setup XYZ for years and we know it works and it's the way it should be done
A: Well folks drove without seatbelts for years. And then argued that wearing one wouldn't be safe because 'them dang things traps ya in the car'. Just because something has been done a certain way for a long time, doesn't prove it's best.

I wanted to ensure that I included some downsides:

D1) Likelyhood of dropping your reg on the ground: It's on a 7 foot hose. If you don't clip your primary off, it will hit the deck. (note: easily covered in the 5 minutes allocated for training in #2 above).

D2) People talking about DIR this and DIR that and how annoying "all you DIR guys are". It doesn't happen to me where I dive very often. But people who dive in dark chilly waters and use drysuits year round have a different attitude perhaps. But for the record, please see #7 above.

D3) Taking your rig off, you'll forget the bungeed secondary and end up looking like a dork. Luckily you'll remember this experience and not repeat it. Laugh with the other folks around you and you'll all feel better

... ok, I'm out of downsides.

I'm going to say this here and it will get ignored I'm sure: I'm not trying to 'convert' or 'change' how anyone dives. But based on my experience (note: for the opponents, please be sure to point out how limited that is), the BP/W with long hose & bungeed secondary works very well and I have not found anything it's bad at. And I always know where my secondary is, and it's never dragging behind me or unavailable. And when you get right down to it, I'd rather dive with someone who uses this setup.

Now, have a good day and make sure to get some diving in soon. And practice sharing air, no matter which method you choose

Bjorn

 

[mthirsc]

Jeckyll,

Interesting post. I am interested in a long hose, my reason is a little different... when diving independents it would prevent twisting around the other hose. 7' seems like too much for me. I'm not interested in a can light, I like my Barbolight very much for my purposes. Can you or someone else explain the routing of a 5' hose, does it go down the wing, then diagonally up the chest and around the neck? Thanks.

 

[Ice9]

And given the plethora of options for how to stow an octo (including the oh so wonderful "in the pocket or dragging in the dirt behind the diver" methods) this really needs to be part of every discussion, no?

I agree. Although you will never find my octo dragging along the bottom or in a BC pocket. Its always right there secured to my BC front in plain sight. Frankly, I figured we had reached our maximum number of long-hose flame-wars this month...



Oh! Here's my pony!!

 

[lamont]

- the longhose + bungee backup is optimized to detect a free flow out the reg. a free-flow on an octo may not be noticed, particularly if has come out of its holder and is dragging behind you. a diver with a long hose will notice bubbles either in their face or on their neck.

- the rule of quick releases applies: an octo holder will lose the octo when its supposed to retain it, and it will retain it right when you really need it to let go. the long hose config solves this problem by bungee'ing the backup where you can't lose it, and by using your mouth as a quick release (you can always release the reg when you need to while if it comes out accidentally you'll know and fix it very quick).

- the reg recovery process is trivial for OW divers since you just go onto the backup reg.

- the long hose config is optimized so that the diver can present a properly functioning and properly oriented regulator to the victim in a minimum amount of time, every single time, consistently. a consistent trained action is used to deploy the reg every time.

 

[Puffer Fish]

I would think that the issue of a long hose is more about why bother, and complexity. The longer the hose, the more complex the handling.

The drop on the ground comment is interesting, in that it assumes zero defect performance, which is never going to happen.

Most of the arguments for the layout, as Lamont does, discuss how "optimized" it is.

A bungeed second, works identically as well, without the long hose.

The OOA situation is something silly, in that, as pointed out, you should not be out of air, and if you are, something has gone terribly wrong. So if I understand correctly, long hose divers appear to be far more likely to have that happen.

There is one issue, that the long hose is good for... and that is that a short hose is a potential snag item in an inclosed space. On that issue, it is very true. I have used a long hose, for confined space diving, and believe anyone that does not, is missing something.

So, if you are a wreck diver, should you dive with the same rig, even when not... I guess I would say yes, both from a cost point of view and using the same equipment.

Does it have any value to a warm water, fun diving person? No, except as a point of argument.

 

[eandiver]

D3) Taking your rig off, you'll forget the bungeed secondary and end up looking like a dork. Luckily you'll remember this experience and not repeat it. Laugh with the other folks around you and you'll all feel better

Done that a couple of times. My buddy said I looked like a cat with a leash on.

 

[TSandM]

Routing of 5' hose is under the right armpit, around the back of the neck and to the mouth.

I WISH I'd remember to take the necklace off before removing my gear. I've forgotten so often I've actually gotten to where I make the salvage maneuver look natural

 

[fweber]

I would like to ask: While participating in OW dives that do not require a team to exit any environment while maintaining single file, what problem does the long hose solve?

 

[TSandM]

The long hose isn't NECESSARY for simple open water diving. Even GUE used to say that a 40" hose was OK for simple open water, and a 5' certainly acceptable.

The long hose is NECESSARY for overhead diving, and can be CONVENIENT for managing open water scenarios. A lot of us want to put their gear together one way and use it that way for all the diving they do, and since the long hose has very few downsides, we just set it up and use it.

 

[fweber]

Keep in mind I dive a long hose and bungeed backup. But, can we then agree to add to the possible con's: While a 7' hose does not require that a recipient be 7' away from the doaner, it may Allow said recipient to get 7' away. Where a hose somewhat shorter, be that 40" 42" or other, will require that the recipient stays within arms length and therefore be more easily controled in a situation where they may be paniced, while still allowing both divers to ascend while in a side by side, or facing each other, configuration? Subsequently, while the long hose may suffice for recreational OW dives with known team members, a shorter hose may be a more optimal configuration with regard to controlling rescue situations and diving with new or as yet unknown team members?