The Local Dive Shop and Their Advantage

[Knockout Diver]

It does benefit an instructor if you purchased at the store he/she works at. It is able to stay in business and the instructor will more likely get more opportunities for a class over an instructor that does not sell. Try to look at this from a business view point.
We do price match here, in fact, we look up online retailers constantly to be sure we stay competitive.

That's interesting. Which shop are you at? I think independent instructors can bring people in the door if you let them use your gear/facility. Students can use your equipment and if they like it and your prices are reasonable, they should buy it. A dive shop should never make someone feel guilty about not buying a piece of equipment. I think people feel like scuba is expensive because they walk into a dive shop and everything is hundreds and thousands of dollars. They get discouraged and never pursue it beyond an intro course. There's a whole world of reasonable price gear (new and used) out there and if it brings more people into it, then great. Maybe some of those people will care for the oceans more. That's my point.

 

[TMHeimer]

It does benefit an instructor if you purchased at the store he/she works at. It is able to stay in business and the instructor will more likely get more opportunities for a class over an instructor that does not sell. Try to look at this from a business view point.
We do price match here, in fact, we look up online retailers constantly to be sure we stay competitive.

Points taken. At times I forget most dive pros live in the real world. Here (due to LDS' monopoly) there is little chance the shop will ever close (well, they have 2 outlets, the main one where courses happen and one over in Halifax). I doubt there is any record of which instructor's students buy stuff. There is an annual meeting in winter where instructors (and DMs) sign up for doing courses, which usually results in each instructor getting maybe 4-6 OW courses and the higher up ones getting the con. ed ones. But in the competitive world I can see what you're saying.

 

[Kris Reynolds]

Knockout Diver, you seem pretty upset about this. Diving should be fun and relaxing. Take a deep breath of compressed air and fin on to the fun stuff!

Below is my perspective on some of the points you make, however, I'd like to first point out an important distinction I think you are missing. You may not agree with my opinions, much like you don't agree with the way the the Texas LDS you were trained at operated. That's perfectly ok...... it is reasonable to disagree with people, just as it is reasonable to choose to shop elsewhere if you do not like the way any brick and mortar business operates. You will find you are wasting your time and effort if you think that you can make these places operate the way you want however, because like it or not..... they have the same choice to reasonably disagree with you.

the LDS owner one day confronted me when doing one of my AOW courses about why I have not bought gear from him. He told me that it's an unwritten agreement, I take the course, I buy the gear from him.

I wouldn't accept this either if it were posed to me this way. When you sign up for training, your agreement is for training. Most LDS I know would like you to buy from them, but they have no right to insist upon it. I would suggest however, that if the location of the shop, and their willingness to work around your schedule like you mention is important to you, that there is a value in doing business there so you can continue to enjoy that convenience.

I am a millennial. For some reason, that makes the older crowd shudder.

I am not a millennial. For some reason, that makes the millennial crowd believe I shudder when they speak. I assume this is because most of the millennial crowd is frustrated that they are commonly stereotyped into a group in a negative light. I have often wondered if millennial's realize that no one really cares that they are a millennial.......well.....except them.

A slight attempt on humour to lighten the load of that statement.....but I don't think you being millennial has any bearing on your point, with the exception that you have grown up in a time that has built a habit of going to a computer or device instead of a store or a person. That's not right or wrong, but it is a difference.

His prices were not competitive for the courses, as a matter of fact, he was slightly higher than the area but the instructor was willing to work with me on scheduling. So it was not like he was giving me a special rate for training that I could apply that savings to my gear. His gear prices were "standard for the industry." What I want to know is that why does this "standard" apply to local dive shops but it doesn't apply to online retailers?

You started making a great point, but then you slid off the tracks with it. You are trying to explain why apples are priced different from oranges, but you are only looking at the structure of the orange vendor.

There are a ton of reasons why LDS pricing is different than online. I'm sure it has been explained somewhere on SB many times over. The important idea underlying in your statement is that "price" does not dictate competitiveness. The "value" of the course was "worth it" to you because you were getting a benefit of scheduling around you. The LDS should offer you far more than just matching a price that you can find online. If the only thing you base your business on is price, then you are suggesting everyone in the world should drive a Hundai accent because it would be the lowest cost per kilometer.

I think what you are trying to get at is that you find it easier and a better experience to buy online. Presently, the trend of retail is moving that direction, however, in the not to distant future, I suspect that the trend will swing back and balance in the middle. Much of the added value of shopping at a local business of any kind will eventually be lost as many of them close because consumers choose to shop online. Most of the consumers that complain about the prices online being so much better, will also be the first to complain that the personal service level is dropping, or they have to pay more for service etc.

You can't have it both ways. A LDS requires to make a certain amount to stay in business. Weather you want to admit it or not, the majority of divers NEED a LDS for something, and therefore need that LDS to make those $$$ so they are there for them. Sometimes saving $5.00 on a product will cost you $15.00. You need to look at more than the price tag.

You are not "doing us a favor." You are the one that got into the dive shop business. It's a different time to do business than 30 years ago. As millennials, we care about experiences. We will gladly spend our money if you are nice, fair, and competitive.

It is a valid point..... but you are also not doing the LDS a favour. They did get into the business, and as such, they have earned the right to operate how they see fit. If you want it to operate differently, you can also choose to get into the business and run the way you see fit.

I agree with your point that they must be nice, fair and competitive. I would just highlight that consumers have an equal responsibility to be nice, and fair, and to look at competitiveness as more than just price.

I also believe that as millennials you care about experiences..... and eventually you will have experienced enough that your opinion will change.

 

[oly5050user]

Points taken. At times I forget most dive pros live in the real world. Here (due to LDS' monopoly) there is little chance the shop will ever close (well, they have 2 outlets, the main one where courses happen and one over in Halifax). I doubt there is any record of which instructor's students buy stuff. There is an annual meeting in winter where instructors (and DMs) sign up for doing courses, which usually results in each instructor getting maybe 4-6 OW courses and the higher up ones getting the con. ed ones. But in the competitive world I can see what you're saying.

So an instructor gets 4-6 classes a year up there? I get 2 to 3 in a week here at times..and this is in westchester NY, not the tropics.

 

[Knockout Diver]

Knockout Diver, you seem pretty upset about this. Diving should be fun and relaxing. Take a deep breath of compressed air and fin on to the fun stuff!

Below is my perspective on some of the points you make, however, I'd like to first point out an important distinction I think you are missing. You may not agree with my opinions, much like you don't agree with the way the the Texas LDS you were trained at operated. That's perfectly ok...... it is reasonable to disagree with people, just as it is reasonable to choose to shop elsewhere if you do not like the way any brick and mortar business operates. You will find you are wasting your time and effort if you think that you can make these places operate the way you want however, because like it or not..... they have the same choice to reasonably disagree with you.



I wouldn't accept this either if it were posed to me this way. When you sign up for training, your agreement is for training. Most LDS I know would like you to buy from them, but they have no right to insist upon it. I would suggest however, that if the location of the shop, and their willingness to work around your schedule like you mention is important to you, that there is a value in doing business there so you can continue to enjoy that convenience.



I am not a millennial. For some reason, that makes the millennial crowd believe I shudder when they speak. I assume this is because most of the millennial crowd is frustrated that they are commonly stereotyped into a group in a negative light. I have often wondered if millennial's realize that no one really cares that they are a millennial.......well.....except them.

A slight attempt on humour to lighten the load of that statement.....but I don't think you being millennial has any bearing on your point, with the exception that you have grown up in a time that has built a habit of going to a computer or device instead of a store or a person. That's not right or wrong, but it is a difference.

You started making a great point, but then you slid off the tracks with it. You are trying to explain why apples are priced different from oranges, but you are only looking at the structure of the orange vendor.

There are a ton of reasons why LDS pricing is different than online. I'm sure it has been explained somewhere on SB many times over. The important idea underlying in your statement is that "price" does not dictate competitiveness. The "value" of the course was "worth it" to you because you were getting a benefit of scheduling around you. The LDS should offer you far more than just matching a price that you can find online. If the only thing you base your business on is price, then you are suggesting everyone in the world should drive a Hundai accent because it would be the lowest cost per kilometer.

I think what you are trying to get at is that you find it easier and a better experience to buy online. Presently, the trend of retail is moving that direction, however, in the not to distant future, I suspect that the trend will swing back and balance in the middle. Much of the added value of shopping at a local business of any kind will eventually be lost as many of them close because consumers choose to shop online. Most of the consumers that complain about the prices online being so much better, will also be the first to complain that the personal service level is dropping, or they have to pay more for service etc.

You can't have it both ways. A LDS requires to make a certain amount to stay in business. Weather you want to admit it or not, the majority of divers NEED a LDS for something, and therefore need that LDS to make those $$$ so they are there for them. Sometimes saving $5.00 on a product will cost you $15.00. You need to look at more than the price tag.

It is a valid point..... but you are also not doing the LDS a favour. They did get into the business, and as such, they have earned the right to operate how they see fit. If you want it to operate differently, you can also choose to get into the business and run the way you see fit.

I agree with your point that they must be nice, fair and competitive. I would just highlight that consumers have an equal responsibility to be nice, and fair, and to look at competitiveness as more than just price.

I also believe that as millennials you care about experiences..... and eventually you will have experienced enough that your opinion will change.

Hi Kris. Thank you for taking the time to reply. I like varying opinions. Without them, the world would be a boring place. You bring some good examples but I would like to address them as well.

The instructor I had was an independent instructor that associated with this LDS. I did not believe it was the dive shop's right to sweep in on this. The arrangement I made about scheduling had nothing to do with the LDS. I've seen this tactic with one other LDS so I know it happens.

Your Hyundai example is valid. I love car examples so let's use it. I'm saying that there's Hyundai, Benz, and Royces. The same with regulators, BCs, even signal markers. You have brands from Hogs to rebreather systems. Car dealerships offer full services including tire rotations, oil changes, and complete mechanic work. Much like LDS offer air fills, classes, and repairs. I'm not saying everyone should use a Hog regulator because they are affordable and you can do your own services. What I am saying is that if you want a Hog, or an Aqualung, or a Mares, etc. you should get it at the same price because it is the same regulator. If a car dealership that only sold cars and didn't do services offers you the exact same car at $3,000 off vs a "full dealership" would you say no, I rather go with the full dealership? I find that hard to believe because $3,000 is $3,000. With Scuba equipment it's usually not thousands of dollars. It's neither $5 to $15 as your example. It's sometimes a couple hundred dollars. A lot of people do not take their car to the dealership for service either, they go to Jiffy Lube, Firestone, etc. Places with lower overhead that has nothing to do with selling cars and just offer services at a lower price than "full dealerships." If you're looking for a sense of community, I also look at the car example. There's Corvette clubs, classic car clubs, etc. They meet in parking lots and show off their latest toys. The scuba industry is no different. I think ScubaBoard is a community in itself. There's experts on here and people like me, with an opinion about everything .

You're absolutely right that I'm not going to convince anyone to change the way they do business. It's their business. It's their money. I have my own business that's no Scuba related. However, if I decide to open a scuba shop, I will take a different approach. I'm sure there's shops out there who already take this approach. I believe if the retail industry and the car industry are changing, then the scuba industry should change as well if they want to survive. I shouldn't have to shutter about going into a dive shop and feel pressured into buying anything. I should walk in, tell them what I need, they might suggest something else, and out the door I go for a fair price. Anyhow, thanks for the opinion, I'd love to hear what your thoughts are on this.

 

[oly5050user]

That's interesting. Which shop are you at? I think independent instructors can bring people in the door if you let them use your gear/facility. Students can use your equipment and if they like it and your prices are reasonable, they should buy it. A dive shop should never make someone feel guilty about not buying a piece of equipment. I think people feel like scuba is expensive because they walk into a dive shop and everything is hundreds and thousands of dollars. They get discouraged and never pursue it beyond an intro course. There's a whole world of reasonable price gear (new and used) out there and if it brings more people into it, then great. Maybe some of those people will care for the oceans more. That's my point.

We do have independent instructors use our facility frequently, at a reasonable rate that they enjoy. Our pool cost us $$$$ if is in use or not being used. So why not put it to use when it is idle?
Facility is Scuba New York, located in Yonkers NY

 

[Knockout Diver]

We do have independent instructors use our facility frequently, at a reasonable rate that they enjoy. Our pool cost us $$$$ if is in use or not being used. So why not put it to use when it is idle?
Facility is Scuba New York, located in Yonkers NY

Agreed. I think it's good business to spread the costs as much as possible.

 

[Kris Reynolds]

Hi Kris. Thank you for taking the time to reply. I like varying opinions. Without them, the world would be a boring place. You bring some good examples but I would like to address them as well.

The instructor I had was an independent instructor that associated with this LDS. I did not believe it was the dive shop's right to sweep in on this. The arrangement I made about scheduling had nothing to do with the LDS. I've seen this tactic with one other LDS so I know it happens.

Your Hyundai example is valid. I love car examples so let's use it. I'm saying that there's Hyundai, Benz, and Royces. The same with regulators, BCs, even signal markers. You have brands from Hogs to rebreather systems. Car dealerships offer full services including tire rotations, oil changes, and complete mechanic work. Much like LDS offer air fills, classes, and repairs. I'm not saying everyone should use a Hog regulator because they are affordable and you can do your own services. What I am saying is that if you want a Hog, or an Aqualung, or a Mares, etc. you should get it at the same price because it is the same regulator. If a car dealership that only sold cars and didn't do services offers you the exact same car at $3,000 off vs a "full dealership" would you say no, I rather go with the full dealership? I find that hard to believe because $3,000 is $3,000. With Scuba equipment it's usually not thousands of dollars. It's neither $5 to $15 as your example. It's sometimes a couple hundred dollars. A lot of people do not take their car to the dealership for service either, they go to Jiffy Lube, Firestone, etc. Places with lower overhead that has nothing to do with selling cars and just offer services at a lower price than "full dealerships." If you're looking for a sense of community, I also look at the car example. There's Corvette clubs, classic car clubs, etc. They meet in parking lots and show off their latest toys. The scuba industry is no different. I think ScubaBoard is a community in itself. There's experts on here and people like me, with an opinion about everything .

You're absolutely right that I'm not going to convince anyone to change the way they do business. It's their business. It's their money. I have my own business that's no Scuba related. However, if I decide to open a scuba shop, I will take a different approach. I'm sure there's shops out there who already take this approach. I believe if the retail industry and the car industry are changing, then the scuba industry should change as well if they want to survive. I shouldn't have to shutter about going into a dive shop and feel pressured into buying anything. I should walk in, tell them what I need, they might suggest something else, and out the door I go for a fair price. Anyhow, thanks for the opinion, I'd love to hear what your thoughts are on this.

Good points..... I also appreciate car metaphors.

My point focused on Brands true, but not for the sake of the brand. The point I was making is "why" are people willing to pay more for a Benz than they are for a Hundai. They do the same job right? Just like purchasing online does the same job as purchasing at a LDS.... but there is a difference.

There are plenty of reasons that the LDS should charge more than an online retailer. There is a cost of providing a location closer to you, and a cost of paying to get the products there from the distributor so you don't have to pay shipping or wait, the cost of maintaining an inventory that meets the needs of the area, and paying for employees to do a good job. There is the ability to have a real person, with real experience that will help you make the right choice, and will be there to assist if things should go wrong. (In theory).

I don't own a dive shop, but I do own and operate several different businesses, all of which have similar challenges with general consumers not quantifying the value of personal sales and service. I am not suggesting that there are not LDS out there that do a poor job, or people who work at them who don't have off days, but I will suggest that LDS's provide a significant benefit to the dive community overall, and that that "value" needs to be considered before making online purchases that may seem less expensive up front. I also agree with your point that it is necessary in today's world to operate on both, and I see the e-commerce in my business continually representing a larger percentage of my own revenue streams. To liken it to another industry that everyone has experience with, telecom is constantly being pitted to reduce pricing and is mostly valued on price alone. The people who complain that they can find a wireless phone plan for $5.00 less a month from Sprint instead of AT&T (sorry if those are dated, I am not from the US) are also usually the people who complain that customer service lines are outsourced to India or other countries, which they consider is lower service. If they didn't put value only on the price, and force the industry to reduce to a level that supported local customer service... a well spent $5.00 per month; Which also in turn would provide more jobs for local people to earn and spend at your businesses and mine

Personally, I research online so I have a level of education regarding pricing when I go to my LDS, but most often than not I will also pay more for items to support them, because I need them there. If I were to quantify it, I would say I am personally willing to pay up to 20% more for items than I would to order online to give the business to my LDS that is there to support diving in my area, support local dive clubs and groups, and have what I need (both products and expertise) when I need it.

 

[stuartv]

It is a valid point..... but you are also not doing the LDS a favour. They did get into the business, and as such, they have earned the right to operate how they see fit. If you want it to operate differently, you can also choose to get into the business and run the way you see fit.

I agreed with most of what you said, but not this. Two things:

One, when someone walks into a shop and chooses to pay 20 - 100% more for an item, they ARE doing the shop a favor. And if shop's looked at customers that way, they would probably give said customers a lot better customer service - which would ultimately pay benefits to the shop.

As I said in that other thread, one of my local shops charges full MSRP for all the gear they sell. And they seem to be totally genuine in NOT caring if you do your training and buy your gear somewhere else. They just want more people to dive and dive more often. So, when you do buy something from them, they genuinely seem to appreciate it. The result is that they have a lot of regular customers who really like them and ultimately choose to pay full MSRP to buy stuff from them because, basically, they just like the shop and the people that work there.

Two, if you want a shop to operate differently, sure, one option is to get into the business and run your own shop the way you think it should be run. But, another option that is much more likely and yet still effective is simply to take your business to a different shop. One that does run itself the way you want.

 

[Kris Reynolds]

I agreed with most of what you said, but not this. Two things:

One, when someone walks into a shop and chooses to pay 20 - 100% more for an item, they ARE doing the shop a favor. And if shop's looked at customers that way, they would probably give said customers a lot better customer service - which would ultimately pay benefits to the shop.

As I said in that other thread, one of my local shops charges full MSRP for all the gear they sell. And they seem to be totally genuine in NOT caring if you do your training and buy your gear somewhere else. They just want more people to dive and dive more often. So, when you do buy something from them, they genuinely seem to appreciate it. The result is that they have a lot of regular customers who really like them and ultimately choose to pay full MSRP to buy stuff from them because, basically, they just like the shop and the people that work there.

Two, if you want a shop to operate differently, sure, one option is to get into the business and run your own shop the way you think it should be run. But, another option that is much more likely and yet still effective is simply to take your business to a different shop. One that does run itself the way you want.

Hi Stuart,

I think we are talking about the very same thing from different sides. My 9 looks like your 6. ....... but you are really not doing the store a favour by shopping there. It is a transaction by which they provide a product and service while you provide $$$ for them for it. There is no favour involved...... and your point is exactly that. If they do not add enough value to justify their price.... people will take their business elsewhere. My point exactly was that the option to run your own shop, or shop elsewhere is the reasonable discourse if you want change.

Unless the LDS is calling you up and asking you to buy something because it has been a very slow month, and they are struggling to meet their rent, then you are not doing them a favour by shopping there, you are choosing to give them your business, just like they are choosing to provide the products or services in a manner that deserves it.

Just a different idea of what constitutes a favour.