The LDS of the future

[Rich Keller]

Apologies if it's mentioned in one of the few pages I didn't read. Air fills get mentioned a lot in this thread. One thing that occurs to me is that we don't seem to have invented / created / developed an automatic air-fill machine. I suspect that the majority of divers just dive on air. Do we need a human to do that air-fill? Why not just have a machine which you can insert your cylinder, attach the whip yourself, close the door, swipe your "cert" card, and insert the relevant $ into a coin slot?

I know that this isn't really promoting LDS, but is it a natural progression? We pump our own gas or LPG into our cars (and gas/LPG have the same potential to cause injury or death if mishandled), so why not our own air?

I am sure it is technically possible but I do not think you can make enough money just selling air to cover the cost of the machine. Much like a suggestion made earlier for a mobile compressor that could be taken to local dive sites, it will work but there would not be enough profit to sustain it. Future advances in compressor technology could change that down the road though. Something like that could work in a chain sports store that sold other equipment but did not have people well versed in diving on staff.

 

[Mike]

I've never had to advertise once and I've always had more work that I can handle, except between 2009 and early 2011, but that was because nobody had any money to spend so advertising wouldn't have done any good anyway, it would have just sunk me further. But, I'm still here, that's more than I can say for a lot of people and businesses.

Another super rationalizer.

Plenty of business went on during that time period; many people actually grew their businesses while yours was suffering. Because you kept running your business on its old basis which was on hope and a prayer instead of acting proactively, you suffered, and of course you rationalize the whole thing that EVERYBODY suffered the same become NOBODY had any money. This is the typical New American mentality of it's never my fault, I'm a victim.

I've probably consulted with close to 800-1000 small business owners over the last 5 years and most of them were in identical situations. During boom times they made average to mediocre incomes but had to do little to maintain them. Many like yourself beat their chests in riotousness about how "I have never advertised!!!!" as if it’s some badge of honor, then one by one they all cycled through the same scenarios, with dropping sales they suffered because repeat and referral is simply not a long term business plan for any business. It's a plan for somebody with a hobby. In an economic down turn those are the first businesses to feel it, and with no experience in marketing and advertising at best they are playing catch up to the companies with established marketing plans in place who are now taking all your market share from you, at worst they fold as so many unfortunately did.

I've listen to this same old tired mantra about word of mouth for decades. Talk it up all you want.

 

[SeaHorse81]

I've been self employed for longer than I've worked for somebody and I'm 49.
I'm with you, word of mouth is the best advertisment hands down.
I've learned that people or companies that need to advertise heavily are not always doing so well or else they wouldn't be blowing huge sums of money on something that might or might not work, or requires a steady stream of one time customers to feed their machine.

I've never had to advertise once and I've always had more work that I can handle, except between 2009 and early 2011, but that was because nobody had any money to spend so advertising wouldn't have done any good anyway, it would have just sunk me further. But, I'm still here, that's more than I can say for a lot of people and businesses.

Ditto, except I'm not 49. My business has been going for seven years now, referrals only, and while I'm not busier than I can handle, I'm busy enough to not have to seriously entertain the possibility of a real job again. I've never spent a dime on advertising, because mine is the kind of business that if people think you're good, you'll have work. Still working.

To a certain extent, you're correct. They have to advertise because they do suck. It takes work to convince consumers that they want to eat crappy food from a paper sack, and that it's in their best interest to buy foreign made products cheap, instead of local products that would ensure their continued employment.

This is one of the smartest things I've seen written about the state of business in America today. Kudos.

 

[Bryan Cunningham]

I have to agree with this. What divemasters and instructors get paid is disgraceful. You most determinately earn more flipping burgers. The long term effect for the industry is dive instructors only work as a holiday job. Fewer and fewer can afford to stay in the industry long enough to become really experienced professional instructors. they have to leave to find a "real job." This lowers the overall standard of dive training. Yet divers still want small groups, personal service and professional staff. And they want it cheaper and cheaper.

Would you mind me copying your response to my new blodspot? SCUBA advice and opinions

You don't think diving is affordable?

This "Campaign for Free Diving" never fails to make me chuckle.

If 75% of the diving community didn't insist on demanding training from the McDiver agencies, then a wider range of business models could probably be considered. Agency associated costs (materials, memberships, certification fees) are about the only costs that could effectively be reduced. That's why the 'stack them high and flog them cheap' sausage factory operations always do the best - quality of tuition is a very low consideration for them however.

Equipment, boat & compressor operation/maintenance - they cost what they cost (hint: a lot) - even if the dive operator is lucky enough to have trained staff who can do the leg-work on the kit for a low salary and late into the evenings every night.

Insurance - would you be happy for a dive op to skimp on that? It costs what it costs.

Dive professionals - get paid a disgraceful salary already. Some dive operations do make use of free labour, especially at DM level. Prices are kept artificially low because most professionals love diving to the extent that they'll accept less wages than they'd otherwise earn flipping burgers in McDonalds.

If a dive pro charged for their services on a par with a driving instructor.. you'd be looking at a massive hike in course costs. Want to compare the cost/duration of training and level of responsibility between a diving instructor and a driving instructor? Same is true for equipment/compressor technicians... want to compare their earnings to an equivalent trained mechanic in the auto-industry etc?

It's your choice whether you patronise your LDS, who may charge more than the cheapest internet deal available - but if they close it is ultimately the diving community that suffers.

You could always buy your own boat and compressor... see if that works out cheaper for you in the long run...

 

[Thalassamania]

You don't think diving is affordable?

This "Campaign for Free Diving" never fails to make me chuckle.

If 75% of the diving community didn't insist on demanding training from the McDiver agencies, then a wider range of business models could probably be considered. Agency associated costs (materials, memberships, certification fees) are about the only costs that could effectively be reduced. That's why the 'stack them high and flog them cheap' sausage factory operations always do the best - quality of tuition is a very low consideration for them however.

I do no think that 75% (or any number for that matter) of those looking for entry level training insist (or even look for) McDiver agencies ... it is the LDSs and resorts that make that determination, and it is not on the basis of what might be best for those who are desirous of such training either in terms of expense or quality.

Equipment, boat & compressor operation/maintenance - they cost what they cost (hint: a lot) - even if the dive operator is lucky enough to have trained staff who can do the leg-work on the kit for a low salary and late into the evenings every night.

It is amazing how skilled diesel and compressor mechanics are expected to work for next to nothing.

Insurance - would you be happy for a dive op to skimp on that? It costs what it costs.

No, it really doesn't costs should be much lower. Insurance is a scam, the rate is not based on real losses and even those losses could be much better controlled if we actually had high quality training as the norm. There is not excuse for a fatality during training and that is where the biggest losses are. There is also the possibility of moving to defense only insurance that eliminates the deep pocket effect.

Dive professionals - get paid a disgraceful salary already. Some dive operations do make use of free labour, especially at DM level. Prices are kept artificially low because most professionals love diving to the extent that they'll accept less wages than they'd otherwise earn flipping burgers in McDonalds.

Yup.

If a dive pro charged for their services on a par with a driving instructor.. you'd be looking at a massive hike in course costs. Want to compare the cost/duration of training and level of responsibility between a diving instructor and a driving instructor? Same is true for equipment/compressor technicians... want to compare their earnings to an equivalent trained mechanic in the auto-industry etc?

I charge more.

It's your choice whether you patronise your LDS, who may charge more than the cheapest internet deal available - but if they close it is ultimately the diving community that suffers.

Not really, I don't see much that the current model LDS does that could not be better accomplished by an alternative lash-up.

You could always buy your own boat and compressor... see if that works out cheaper for you in the long run...

If you make 100 dives a year, that 50 diving days (more or less). A small compressor and a Zodiac MK IV Grand Raid starts to look attractive when compared to $5,000 a year in boat diving charges.

 

[scubafanatic]

I don't rely on diving for income to pay the regular bills. But I work a blue collar job that pays nothing near what a doctor, lawyer, or ceo makes. Diving is the only interest I've found that has managed to hold my interest for more than a couple years. In order to do it as much as I like I need to have a source of funds separate from my regular job. It turns out I have a knack for teaching. Now to teach in the USA where people refuse to take responsibility for themselves I need to have insurance. That costs money. More money in fact than my brother-in-laws insurance as an RN. More than a psycho-therapist I know pays. I also need to issue cards so my students can get air fills. That means going thru an agency or spending a couple grand on a card machine. Then setting up my own agency. Developing course materials (which is no biggie as I do that now any way) has costs associated with printing.

So I need to charge for my classes. Not living in a particularly affluent area I need to charge what the market will bear. That may change as this season I'm going to start going after the Marcellus Shale money that is coming to this area. Not many people are really benefitting from the whole thing directly from this area. But the people from texas, oklahoma, etc that are actually getting the good jobs are coming and they may need to do more than work.

They can afford premium prices for QUALITY instruction and those are the students I want.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk

Jim, don't get too excited about the 'Marcellus Shale $' just yet, this is coming form someone who lives in the heart of the Barnett Shale 'boom' area, and who watched landowners/homeowners getting up front cash offers of up to about $ 30K/acre signing bonuses and royalties approaching 30% of gas production. Unfortunately, the bidding hysteria peaked way back in 2008 when natural gas was @ $ 13/1000 cu. ft., natural gas prices have subsequently fallen through the floor and have been scraping the bottom @ $3 or $4/1000 cu. ft for 2-3 yrs now, and the prediction is no price increase for the forseeable future. The ONLY drilling that has happened since 2008 are gas companies drilling to maintain ownership of all the 2008-era leases, the typical deal here is if a gas company doesn't drill a site for 2 yrs, the forfeit the lease and have to pay for a new lease all over again, and they don't want to lose the rights to drill all those $ 30K/acre leases they all overpaid for back in 2008. The drilling here now is busy work done for legal reasons, otherwise there would be zero drilling in the Barnett Shale area these days. (back in 2008 though, it was a feeding frenzy/bidding war, with rigs springing up in residential neighbor hoods, along highways, all over the place!) Additional complicating factors that you will likely see in PA will be some homeowners filing legal challenges to stop drilling in their neighborhoods (noise/pollution/water depletion) We've had gas companies abandon attempts to drill in certain areas due to localized opposition. Another fallout of today's low natural gas prices are some homeowners refusing to sign the lowball gas lease offers that some gas companies are offering these days, they are holding out for a return of gas prices back to $ 13/1000 cu. ft. before they agree to sell their gas, and it appears they will have a LONG wait to see those days return. The only thing that might make a difference in PA is how 'wet' your natural gas is ('wet' meaning your gas includes substantial amounts of valuable liquids like propane/oil along with your gas) You are more likely to see gas drilling in your area if your gas is 'wet' as these liquids are valuable enough to offset $3-$4/1000 cu. ft. gas prices.

 

[scubafanatic]

Think about what your saying... Do you really want 8-10$ hr instructor??? The average golf/tennis pro will run you 50$ hr min. Do you want a 10$hr 20yr old teaching your family how to scuba dive? I think not... That in itself is 75% of what's wrong with the scuba industry. My course is 995.00 everything included, "everything". New year I will be raising the price to 1250.00- if you paid 400.00 then you got a deal, I just wonder if that included anything other then a card and a DVD... Sounds more like a McDonald's happy meal to me.

...are you catering to the 'special needs/handicapped' market ? ...or including a substantial amount of basic gear when you say "everything included" ? Honestly, Basic Open Water certification ain't the Manhattan Project...or perhaps the US educational system standards are far worse than I'd imagined ?

 

[Thalassamania]

...are you catering to the 'special needs/handicapped' market ? ...or including a substantial amount of basic gear when you say "everything included" ? Honestly, Basic Open Water certification ain't the Manhattan Project...or perhaps the US educational system standards are far worse than I'd imagined ?

If you are satisfied with the current product, then that's not very hard to produce and can be done quite cheaply. But ... on the other hand, if you want folks to come out of their entry level course knowing more than 90% of the instructors who are out there today and being better in the water than 90% of the instructors who are out there today, that is a little more difficult and takes a dash more knowledge, diving skill and teaching acumen. Obtaining that sort of combination costs a bit more.

 

[VooDooGasMan]

scuba not sure how Brendon operates but if it is referrals I think those divers are problem divers cause the Pm i just recieved from brendon had more swear words than anything else and was wtitten in a teenagers way of saying it.

Maybe this is the problem we have people like this in the dive industry, and they just keep going till they finally get a dive shop, and they are upset no one gives all there money or time to them. the end result is treating customers unkindly.

 

[scubafanatic]

If you are satisfied with the current product, then that's not very hard to produce and can be done quite cheaply. But ... on the other hand, if you want folks to come out of their entry level course knowing more than 90% of the instructors who are out there today and being better in the water than 90% of the instructors who are out there today, that is a little more difficult and takes a dash more knowledge, diving skill and teaching acumen. Obtaining that sort of combination costs a bit more.

...guess I'm just wondering what extras are included @ $ 1250 that weren't included in my 'class in a can' mass production Scubatoys OW cert 10 yrs ago? In this economy charging 3X or 4X the 'canned' rate can't be an easy sell, so I'd like to hear about the assumed extras students get @ $ 1250 ? Honestly, you'd probably be better off doing the OW @ $ 400, and spend the remaining $ 850 funding 20 assorted difficulty Coz drift dives, that real world experience is gonna be way more relevant than anything you'll get out of a book/pool/quarry dives....unless the $ 1250 IS including a bunch of extra real world dives ?