The LDS of the future

[Eric Sedletzky]

OW - require 10 dives for certification, with a major stress on boyancy control.

AOW - can't take it till you have 50 dives under your belt.

Rescue - should require 100 dives before you can take it

DM - should require 200 dives at a minimum before you can start the course

I think OW AOW and rescue should be included in one course along with buoyancy control.
Spacing out AOW and rescue that far apart doesn't do the beginning diver any good. They should have those skills from AOW and rescue right away.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The majority of American consumers need to be protected from themselves, they simply aren't sophisticated enough to do the research to figure out who is who.

That right there is an excellent summation of all that is wrong with America ... on way more levels than just scuba diving.

No ... we don't need to be protected from ourselves ... we need to re-learn the meaning of personal responsibility.

In scuba diving, personal responsibility should be the baseline of what we teach. Skills and knowledge need to revolve around the concept that, ultimately, no one is responsible for "protecting" us but ourselves ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Wookie]

If it was up to me -

OW - require 10 dives for certification, with a major stress on boyancy control.

AOW - can't take it till you have 50 dives under your belt.

Rescue - should require 100 dives before you can take it

DM - should require 200 dives at a minimum before you can start the course

What would you do about the young thing that got her 100 dives for instructor by doing 20 20 minute dives per weekend over 4 weekends in 22 feet of water off the dock? What would you do about the quarry divers who haven't gotten their gear salty yet, yet have hundreds of dives? I'm not arguing with you, nor do I necessarily think that quarry divers are bad divers, but there is wayyyy more to it than a minimum number of dives. The young thing was, by the way, "doing" her instructor. What they were doing, I don't know, but since she certified before me, she got the opportunity to staff the final NPS mission to Bikini Atoll for Department of Energy. She was not an NPS employee, but we Department of Energy types were allowed to staff and support the mission if we were DM certified. Since I wasn't able to provide the extra-curricular activities she was for the instructor, I wasn't picked to go. I finished my 60 dives the old fashioned way, by diving.

The point is, you can find good instructors and you can find instructors who just want your money. The training agencies don't really care, they get your money either way.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Frank you should have just faked it like you could have. A little make up, short shorts, and a tank top and you'd been good to go! A real hottie (sasquatch that is :shocked2.

I disagree with the OW AOW rescue progression though. Given what the AOW card allows you to do in the eyes of ops and resorts, I'd prefer they do rescue first. Unless you are giving them rescue skills in OW like SEI and NAUI do. I include rescue in OW, introduce more in AOW, and then offer the rescue class. I also require 10 dives between OW and AOW on top of their cert dives.

 

[fdog]

...Return to this thread after a trip...fascinating...

Brendon, what's your real name?


All the best, James

 

[Mike]

That right there is an excellent summation of all that is wrong with America ... on way more levels than just scuba diving.

No ... we don't need to be protected from ourselves ... we need to re-learn the meaning of personal responsibility.

In scuba diving, personal responsibility should be the baseline of what we teach. Skills and knowledge need to revolve around the concept that, ultimately, no one is responsible for "protecting" us but ourselves ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I agree with you totally about personal responsibility. However, you can go on all day long about where the nanny state should start and stop, you can make an argument that the police forces then ultimately should all be disbanded, we don't need them and on and on.

But if we stick to the point, the point was only in regard to diving and having the ability to be reasonably assured that odds are better your instructor will at least have a baseline of knowledge and skill if they are at least tested to some sort of standards established by an agency.

What would you do about the young thing that got her 100 dives for instructor by doing 20 20 minute dives per weekend over 4 weekends in 22 feet of water off the dock? What would you do about the quarry divers who haven't gotten their gear salty yet, yet have hundreds of dives? I'm not arguing with you, nor do I necessarily think that quarry divers are bad divers, but there is wayyyy more to it than a minimum number of dives. The young thing was, by the way, "doing" her instructor. What they were doing, I don't know, but since she certified before me, she got the opportunity to staff the final NPS mission to Bikini Atoll for Department of Energy. She was not an NPS employee, but we Department of Energy types were allowed to staff and support the mission if we were DM certified. Since I wasn't able to provide the extra-curricular activities she was for the instructor, I wasn't picked to go. I finished my 60 dives the old fashioned way, by diving.

The point is, you can find good instructors and you can find instructors who just want your money. The training agencies don't really care, they get your money either way.

The person who fakes 100 dives will fake 20 or 10 or whatever the number. That's a separate issue. Again dealing with the exceptions means all you do is create a situation where nothing gets done. It's like saying you can't post a 55mph speed limit because there will be a time when somebody can break it and nobody will be there to catch him.

If you can argue how on average more dive experience would be detrimental go for it. All I'm saying is in general I think more dive experience is beneficial. Having a higher requirement for certifications only makes sense to me. A dive master with 40 dives doesn't make much sense to me. He may have the book experience but he has no actual experience and to me is way underqualified in the experience aspect.

 

[Thalassamania]

Yes they do.

It's the certified, affiliated dive shop that they sign up for an OW certification course that will cover the material, because the course will be taught by someone who has at least been through a standardized system. The instructor has passed written tests and performed skills as outlined by a standard written course manual. There is also accountability since there is an agency to answer to.

All a standardized system guarantees is that while it will not be the worst possible, it also will not be the best possible.

You might want to be taught by some amateur who will show you his diluted, personalized, whatever he remembers and whatever HE thinks is important, but not me. I'll plunk my money down for somebody with some accountability and certifications.

The best recreational instructors whom I know are all "amateurs" who make their real living at something else. They do a far better job than the "standardized" pretend-professionals. Some of the "amateurs" literally wrote the book.

I don't need to learn to dive like some hillbilly teaching his 3rd cousin how to distill moonshine.

Charlie don't surf ... Hillbillys don't dive.

And as the sport slowly vanishes without any new divers entering it, you will be sewing your own wetsuit out of inner tubes and taping coke bottles to your head for a mask since there won't be any professional equipment available after the sport dies.

I have always made my own wetsuits, they are far better than any that you can buy. Oh, you should know, they're not sewn, they're glued.

You're extremely uninformed if you think referrals drive businesses and can keep businesses healthy and growing. Show me a roofer a mechanic or a mason who lives off of referrals and you're showing me a roofer, mechanic or a mason who lives in a doublewide trailer and doesn't have 2 pennies to rub together.

All my students are referrals, and I do not live in a trailer, so I suspect that what is true of diving may not be true in the construction trades.

There are exceptions to every rule, however I, nor the other 99% couldn't feed their families based off the stories about two instructors out of 10,000.
I know of almost no full time shop based instructors who do not have managerial duties who make enough to feed and raise a family.

Certifications and standards are the baseline. They aren't going to guarantee everyone you would hire is a diving and instructing God. The majority of American consumers need to be protected from themselves, they simply aren't sophisticated enough to do the research to figure out who is who.

So they go with the worst common denominator cause they have a piece of paper that is issued by other like them and say's how wonderful they are? Go read the excellent post by Walter.: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...ng/287780-how-find-excellent-scuba-class.html

The simplest thing to be changed in the dive certification game should be dive requirements.

If it was up to me -

OW - require 10 dives for certification, with a major stress on boyancy control.

AOW - can't take it till you have 50 dives under your belt.

Rescue - should require 100 dives before you can take it

DM - should require 200 dives at a minimum before you can start the course

Now we are more in agreement. Integrating OW, AOW, Rescue, PPB, and a few other specialties will begin to move you in the direction of what we have been doing since 1952. The "experience" dives that you are suggesting are not only unnecessary, but often just ways to continue to do the wrong thing repeatedly. and rescue should be taught and tested at all levels.

 

[flots am]

It's the certified, affiliated dive shop that they sign up for an OW certification course that will cover the material, because the course will be taught by someone who has at least been through a standardized system. The instructor has passed written tests and performed skills as outlined by a standard written course manual. There is also accountability since there is an agency to answer to.

Given the current "race to the bottom" training that is apparently within standards and performed by certified instructors, I'm not entirely certain that you're proving your point.

You might want to be taught by some amateur who will show you his diluted, personalized, whatever he remembers and whatever HE thinks is important, but not me. I'll plunk my money down for somebody with some accountability and certifications.

There is close to zero accountability. The standards and tests are solely to protect the agency and instructor. Even when someone gets killed, there are few consequences outside of whatever legal action the state or heirs take.

I don't need to learn to dive like some hillbilly teaching his 3rd cousin how to distill moonshine.

You could easily be learning from an "instructor" who has 100 dives and was distilling moonshine a couple of months ago. The bar for an instructor card isn't that high.

And as the sport slowly vanishes without any new divers entering it, you will be sewing your own wetsuit out of inner tubes and taping coke bottles to your head for a mask since there won't be any professional equipment available after the sport dies.

I dive dry, and there will always be someone who is happy to accept several thousand dollars to make me a drysuit.

There would certainly be a shakeup, but there will always be a manufacturer or two who will continue production to satisfy demand.

I'm no more worried about the failure of the "SCUBA industry" killing diving, than I am the disappearance of the "Learn to Draw" schools killing art.

You're extremely uninformed if you think referrals drive businesses and can keep businesses healthy and growing. Show me a roofer a mechanic or a mason who lives off of referrals and you're showing me a roofer, mechanic or a mason who lives in a doublewide trailer and doesn't have 2 pennies to rub together.

Seriously? My mason doesn't advertise and he's busy enough to have paid for a truck, a bobcat, a dump trailer, a nice house and his children's education.

Advertising is just for people who aren't good enough to get referrals.

flots.

 

[redacted]

No ... we don't need to be protected from ourselves ... we need to re-learn the meaning of personal responsibility.

And we need to have the opportunity to make choices. Sometimes you need a card. Sometimes you need an instructor. Only if you want/need both should they come together.

 

[VooDooGasMan]

Fdog I think it is Brendon Fowler