Yes I have had 2 second stage diaphrams on 2 different second stages fail this way. Very strange. The diaphrams just seemed to shrink in size. No noticeable problem in use but after servicing there was such a reduction in size that it was impossible to reuse them.
It is just possible that they came from the factory with an incorrect diaphram and I did not notice until after servicing - but the size difference was so great I would expect that I would notice this - one of the checks when servicing my regs I do is to inspect the diaphram for wear as I disa ssemble the scond stage - but it is hard to see how the diaphrams could even have been installed as they were so small.
Would be interested in an explanation. Maybe exposure to heat or chemicals? Mine were cleaned in warm water and detergent before I noticed the problem.
They are not too expensive, and at least you can buy Zeagle parts, so I just put it down to wear and tear and replaced them.
As far as I can tell this has only happened on my older regs. The replacement diaphrams have survived servicing OK and not shrunk. I just serviced a second stage yesterday and cleaned the diaphram in warm water and simple green and it was fine. Maybe there was a bad batch - or a change in material specification - but it is now something I look out for but it has not happened again.
I still really like Zeagle regs and have a few of them that I use for OC and CCR bailout. Especially the first stages which are a fantastic design and very strong and reliable. And you can get easily service kits (at least I hope you can still easily get service kits since the company was sold).
I may still have the "shrunken" diaphrams if Zeagle is interested in having a look, but would have to look for them and am away diving for the next 3 weeks so would not be able to get them until then.
This is what I was looking for. At first I was thinking you just meant "some" regulator, but you obviously mean a Zeagle. Thank you. It just seemed SO bizarre to me. I have dealt with regs of many, many different brands, many, many different ages. Plastic compositions too. Never seen anything like this. I'm glad to hear that I'm not just paranoid, something really was out to get me.
Since this apparently is not stock silicone -- it appears to be a plastic composite of some other sort -- I wondered if it had been cleaned with something odd or the like. However, the way that it shrunk, with the decrease in diameter not accompanied by any distortion, well that made chemical attack seem unlikely.
And I also agree with what you've said about Zeagle and their gear. All I wanted was a little more validation that this was out of the ordinary and not something that should be chocked up to "needing an annual service." I'm not saying that it doesn't need it. Or that that (with a diaphragm thrown in) wouldn't solve it, I'm just saying that this isn't something I think anyone should take lightly.
I'm guessing that the plastic composite was a bad mix. I don't deal with those much, but I know that they are a complex brew and every step in combining and cooking is critical -- moreso with some recipes than others.
Thanks again. You really put this to rest for me.
---------- Post added November 1st, 2013 at 02:35 PM ----------
I am sure Jeff wants to see the misbehaving diaphragm to improve on safety if necessary. That surely should be worth a free service.
I appreciate this open discussion instead of hiding a possible problem.
Exactly, which is why I thought he'd want to see it. I was taken by surprise by the offer for a $35 per stage service. I like to do my own, when I feel competent and appropriately tooled (varies with design). And in this case, my Zeagle, that is exactly what I was doing when I ran into this problem. But if Jeff is offering, I'm accepting. I guess what turned me off was the fact that I wasn't sure what the total price would be (what parts might be replaced WITH charge). Why? Well, I own a lot of regs (I mean a LOT of regs), and I might end up feeling like I threw away money on a service. It would all depend on what upgrades I got, and what they did or did not cost me. With his reassurances, I will gladly take advantage of this opportunity to get my plastic orifice upgraded to a metal one.
---------- Post added November 1st, 2013 at 02:40 PM ----------
Are you sure the lever is not too high and/or the diaphragm is not upside down?
Good points both. But neither check out. Esp. the diaphragm -- that little notched edge that fits over the plastic rim (pretty unique in my limited experience!) makes it obvious which side is which.
---------- Post added November 1st, 2013 at 02:45 PM ----------
Maybe you'd feel better if you took responsibility for your own dive safety and didn't believe that a 2nd stage failure would cause your death. You have an alternate 2nd stage and a buddy, right?
I've taken apart dozens of 30 year-old + 2nd stages, lots of newer ones, and have never ever seen a "shrinking" silicone diaphragm. Maybe you could post a photo, I'm sure several folks would like to see it.
My goodness Halocline, I thought you were more civil than this.
In any case, have you ever tried to take a full breath u/w from a mouthpiece not attached to a reg? You get a lungful of water. If you don't go to the hospital, even if you don't drown, you may have serious medical problems. A loose diaphragm ain't the same thing as a freeflow. You take a breath thinking you have air, and you get water. Try it, I think you will probably regret it. In fact, I can't be sure, but I think that loose mouthpiece on a reg scenario was in an issue of Scuba Diver and the diver died. My point is, an alt. or a buddy, or a pony isn't going to help you. You just inhaled a lungful of water.
Forgot to add: I can post a photo, but it won't look like much. No distortion like you might be envisioning. No wrinkles -- until the diaphragm cover is screwed down; then it gets badly distorted, but you still wouldn't see much.
In general, black on black (okay, dark gray) subjects (case & diaphragm) don't make for very good exposure anyway. The most illustrative photo might be the width of the diaphragm next to a ruler vs. an inside caliper measurement of the case. The difference is more than a mm. The diaphragm barely makes it from rim to rim of the case, and won't go over the rim on both sides. That's why it won't seal. And why I would (probably) be sucking serious water on an inhalation.
---------- Post added November 1st, 2013 at 04:41 PM ----------
This is my guess also. I think when the reg was last serviced another diaphragm was installed. The OP implied he was not happy with the service.
Actually, I don't recall implying that. If I did, it was unintentional (poor phrasing on my part). However, I did leave the servicer unnamed ("who shall remain unnamed"). For this very reason. I didn't want them to be blamed for the diaphragm's status. I KNOW it is the original that came with the reg (the central plate was dated with pen; a habit).
I don't have them do all my work, but when it is convenient, or requires special tools, or I need a part I can't source, I use them. They service nearly everything and do LARGE volumes. They have been very good to me -- both in terms of speed and price -- and this might have been serviced for as little as half the price that Zeagle quoted.
Had I been given more specifics about costs in the PM from Zeagle, maybe that would not have been the case. But I didn't get specifics on "additional" parts. Or a price quote for the service kits. That was one of the reasons I wasn't happy with the original communication with Zeagle. Now it appears that we have come to an understanding.
Not to mention the fact that I've gotten PM's from others who offered to do the service as well. However, the upgrade(s) about which Jeff wrote are well worth having Zeagle do the service, rather than doing it myself. For that, I am very grateful. I look forward to using it again as my primary reg during certain kinds of diving.
I didn't send it to my "unnamed" servicer in the first place because I CAN service a Zeagle although it would be the first time for a thorough overhaul. But that's what I was doing. And folks on SB were helping me with that at the time.
---------- Post added November 1st, 2013 at 05:17 PM ----------
I've routinely replaced the diaphragms in my regs for years. I look at them as items that wear... and so should be replaced perhaps every few years.
I also can't explain your shrinking diaphragm, nor am I a materials engineer, but it frankly seems "unlikely" that anything made from silicone will shrink. That's why they make sex toys and breast implants out of the stuff I assume. Is it possible that the last time your reg was serviced, that an incorrect part was used and you are only now noticing it? Or that you are installing it incorrectly?
It sounds like you had a very reasonable, even generous, offer from the manufacturer, so I'm having trouble understanding your state of "outrageous indignation". It's $14 (or free if you accept JeffZeagle's offer.)
Get over it. You'll live longer.
Your time line is a little messed up here. Or actually, I suppose that depends on your opinion of generous. That "free" offer was AFTER my post on SB. I don't feel a need to get into specifics, but the PM didn't (IMO) make it all that clear what my final cost would be. And it certainly didn't get into specific prices for a diaphragm. I found that afterwards at ZeagleExpress. But that's beside the point. Jeff has now made a very generous offer and I intend to take him up on it.
I agree. I don't think a pure silicone diaphragm would shrink. But I don't think that's what this is (see Zeagle's description in service literature). I think its composition is a complex blend of elastomers and so that would depend on their chemistry and interaction in a variety of environments and with time.
All factors that they didn't know (if improperly compounded) or couldn't control (once it was in my hands) when they installed it during initial assembly. I get all that. But since mine didn't behave according to what would be considered -- I would hope -- industry norms, I wanted to let Zeagle know. And see if they intended to help me with it.
That offer -- as I interpreted it -- would have cost me quite a bit more than doing it myself, so I passed. Then I posted the outcome of that. I think SOME readers might be intersted in knowing that modern plastics DO sometimes misbehave. And that it is something to keep an eye out for, especially for people who service their own gear.
That's why they make sex toys and breast implants out of the stuff I assume.
As someone who deals a bit with unfixed silicone to stabilize sediment samples, my experience (in part from MSDS's) is that it is chosen in those applications owing to the fact that it's a relatively benign (inert) compound with respect to human tissue. Not totally, but close enough. On the other hand, if somebody's toys should come in contact with something with lots of plasticizers -- look out. Then it can become a threat to health.
Get over it. You'll live longer.
That's a mighty accurate crystal ball you got there fella. Does it work for lottery picks?
---------- Post added November 1st, 2013 at 05:41 PM ----------
That's a very generous offer Jeff. But it is no less than I would expect from Zeagle, even though I have the suspicion that he is trying to "milk" free parts for an ~8 year old reg from you .
Yes it is a generous offer. And it is what I expected, based on the very positive comments that I've read over the years on SB. Not a free service. Not "milking" free parts, just the offer of a replacement for the diaphragm and exhaust valve (two free parts). Instead, in the original PM, I got an offer of service at the going rate, with a much less certain idea of what parts might be comp'ed and what might not. I didn't ask for ANYTHING. I just asked for help. And you'll notice I originally did it privately so that Zeagle could handle it anyway they chose.
To lay this to rest, here is the PM I sent (previously I just described the situation -- shrunk diaphragm and sticking exhaust valve):
"I'm at a loss as to what might have happened to these parts. I know that old rubber parts can suffer from both stiffening and stickiness depending on age and air pollution, but these aren't old rubber parts. I assumed that with the "elastomeric compounds" used in these plastics, that these were practically "forever" parts. Instead, they seem to be behaving rather badly and in ways that I thought you might want to know about. Is it possible that they came out of a bad batch of compound? Thanks for your insights."
So "Keyshunter" it is mighty decent of you to paint me in this light. I'm sure you are, instead, a saint-in-waiting soon to be beatified. And, fortunately, from a small but (unfortunately) vocal group of individuals in this venue. Sadly, it seems a "holier than though" population exists in every segment of society: every workplace, every sport, and every internet board. Quick to accuse, quick to condemn, and always acting in the interest of "justice".
But I can assure you, I just wanted a diaphragm (and exhaust valve) replaced that "behaved rather badly" and did not think that was an unreasonable assumption. I didn't want to ask for them, frankly, because I'm tired of people telling me that if I service my own gear, I'm going to die.
Frankly, "Keyshunter", people like you are making me sorry I ever made the effort.
To close this out, thank you one and all who provided insights and illuminating comments. And especially, thank you Jeff from Zeagle. I apologize for making your job any more difficult than it already is. But I learned a lot from this. I'm a teacher and I value learning above all.
To those of you who didn't have anything constructive to say, I'll pass along a favorite quote.
“If someone isn't what others want them to be, the others become angry. Everyone seems to have a clear idea of how other people should lead their lives, but none about his or her own.”
- Paulo Coelho, from The Alchemist
Happy diving!
