The future of this forum

[fweber]

Sure it is. And at this point I should ask you what your DIR training is. But I'm not going to do that, because it is posts like these-blanket generalizations about DIR from people who's sole exposure to it is the internet-that drive me nuts. A post such as your's here is a perfect example of why the forum is set up the way it is. The next logical post would be "no it isn't" and then a 40 page pissing match would ensue, with JeffG ultimately stepping in and effectively flaming everyone and making me spit diet coke all over my keyboard. Good entertainment, but not a very effective way to discuss DIR.

The very fact is: That if you accept optimizing and streamlining your team's gear and procedures so that you have the best possible chance of completing the intended goal with out SNAFU, FUBAR, or general CF as Doing It Right. Then, there is more than one way that may be Doing It Right.The original way came directly from long cave penetrations but will not be optimal for all teams in all conditions and all objectives. DIR is not stagnant. I would assume the most basic principle of DIR to be "Thinking" about and discussing the options, before coming to the best conclusion. If you're suggesting that things are beyond discussion and should just be "accepted". Then, you really are the stereotype of the unthinking lemming. "Sometimes, ya' just have to have Faith, my children" should not be part of this forum.

And yes,........that may involve repeatedly discussing under which curcumstances Dual Bladder wings may be the right way, or the wrong way. But if you silence the discussion, no right thinking diver should give much concern to what is in the DIR Forum.

 

[H2Andy]

So to have a forum that only "DIR answers" seems to me to be a bit pointless. We can have the herd give the answer, but that means us (as users) will have to put up with all the non-DIR answers being provided.

so long as it doesn't degenerate into saying people have "flock mentality" (and it does) that would work in theory

i still think no anti-DIR rants should be allowed in this forum; otherwise it's no different from all the other forums on the board

 

[Web Monkey]

I'll buy that. I'm not DIR and probably never will be, since some of my equipment choices don't match, however, I picked up a number of things here that I use all the time, which make my diving hugely safer, and that I had never even thought of when I first started, like:

• Diving with a known-competent buddy that actually stays with you and watches out for you
• Gas calcuations that include getting my buddy to the surface from any particular depth
• Not carrying anything that wasn't specifically necessary
• Having everything clipped off or stowed in a known location

Regardless of whether or not the DIR forum wins over any new divers, or if it's moderated by someone who verifies it's content, many of the concepts are extremely useful and could help pretty much any diver.

Leaving it open to the public would be a big help to a lot of people, with a very minimal down-side. If posters get too unpleasant, there's a "report" button on every post, and we can apply as large a "Moderator Stick" as necessary.

Terry

I think the forum has value to a lot of people ... so yes, I think it belongs on ScubaBoard.


I don't agree with this at all ... I'd hazard that the majority of the people who get value to this forum have no DIR training at all, and come here because they're thinking about whether or not it would offer what they're looking for.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[cmalinowski]

I couldn't agree more. A forum should be an ongoing discussion... If it can't be, don't call it the DIR forum, call it the "DIR Q&A".

But the problem is that it starts out with possible well-meaning discourse, but ends up being DIR vs non-DIR. The non-DIR people think that their views should be heard as in: [quote-texdiveguy]I do occasionally see a thread that asks a safety question that I persl. feel needs a reply that may not be DIR[/quote]

So, it sort of goes like this:
1. person comes on asks question
2. DIR response given
3. non-DIR thoughts given
4. DIR people say "but this is DIR forum"
5. non-DIR people say that they should be allowed to voice opionion and DIR people are zombies.
6. thread breaks down, GI gets mentioned, thread dies or gets closed.
7. original question is never really answered satisfacterally.

My thoughts on the forum are that it should stay. Moderating out the anti-DIR stuff makes some sense. Moderating out alternate views is not necessarily needed, but it does need to be pointed out that it is not DIR. If the non-DIR view is then argued for, then those messages have tilted it to the anti-DIR side and they can be moderated out.

Having extremely high hopes for discussing and or discovering new DIR "things" is unrealistic. There really isn't much to DIR. It's a fairly simplistic philosophy with standards and procedures set up to support that philosophy. Trying to think up "new standards and procedures" usually doesn't make sense. Unless there is some compelling reason to change--and because it may be slightly betting in some situation is not compelling--we have no great desire to change. The S&P's have bore out enough to make us feel safe. And we understand why they are the way they are. And it's comfortable that others understand and dive that way. And we accept that there are other ways to do it, we just don't want to do it the other ways. We like this way.

so, after all that rambling, I guess my thoughts are that us DIR divers are comfortable talking with people who want to learn and not comfortable arguing with people who don't agree with us. And, since there is little "new" stuff, we get bored rehashing the old stuff at the risk of getting into arguments.

I think most people grow out of this forum but really don't want to because, all arguing aside, scubaboard people are generally pretty nice. Scubaboard probably has many more beginners (or inexperienced divers) than not. People come on looking to learn some stuff. They eventually may wind up wandering into the DIR forum to look and see what it's about. The same questions get asked. The same answers given. Rarely does anything new really get discussed. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just what it is. The people who are knowledgeable get bored of answering the same questions. The non-DIR people see the weakness in the perimiter defenses and pounce.

Not sure that it will ever change. People will come and go. Some decent folks will hang around showing their appreciation for their DIR progession by answering questions. But they will ultimately get bored and leave. My guess is that it will happen to you sometime too Lynne. We hope not of course. Your thoughtful, articulate, and lucid posts really do help in getting points across.

Just my thoughts.

Chris

 

[dsteding]

Now, PM people like Bob Bailey (NW Grateful Diver on this board) and ask him about me and my diving philosophy. Note that he is admittedly NOT DIR, so his perspective should have some merit in terms of what he knows about me as a diver. I personally came to diving the way I do as a result of deliberate thought about how to approach things and GUE training just plain makes sense to me, both conceptually and more importantly in the water. My instructors--both GUE and NAUI--rail against the flock mentality, and instead strive to create thinking divers.

My view is that it is fun to discuss things with like-minded divers. I personally have grown tired of having the same arguments over and over. The irony, of course, is that this is turning into one of those arguments.

 

[texdiveguy]

so long as it doesn't degenerate into saying people have "flock mentality" (and it does) that would work in theory

i still think no anti-DIR rants should be allowed in this forum; otherwise it's no different from all the other forums on the board

.........:shakehead

 

[cmalinowski]

Go form your own agency, teach your ways (since they are the best in the whole world) and let us die peacefully in our DIR death methods. We're happier that way than having to listen to people like you who think that just because we don't want to change to your way, we are narrow-minded. We make our decisions and our choices on our own. The fact that lots of people make the same choice seems to bug the crap out of you. Quite possibly it threatens you to some extent. So you have to argure that your way is best and because a group of people choose something different that they are narrow-minded and have a flock mentality.

You are the epitome of the people that we wish would never venture onto the DIR forum.

Chris

Chris

 

[texdiveguy]

Ready Andy's post above.

Again.

Now, PM people like Bob Bailey (NW Grateful Diver on this board) and ask him about me and my diving philosophy. Note that he is admittedly NOT DIR, so his perspective should have some merit in terms of what he knows about me as a diver. I personally came to diving the way I do as a result of deliberate thought about how to approach things and GUE training just plain makes sense to me, both conceptually and more importantly in the water. My instructors--both GUE and NAUI--rail against the flock mentality, and instead strive to create thinking divers.

My view is that it is fun to discuss things with like-minded divers. I personally have grown tired of having the same arguments over and over. The irony, of course, is that this is turning into one of those arguments.

It would appear from your statement you are taking this very pers.,,,,and I could care less about what someone else thinks of your diving philosophy.....and insinuating I don't spend time diving is SO funny--lol.....lets keep this from perl. jabs.

 

[cmalinowski]

The very fact is: That if you accept optimizing and streamlining your team's gear and procedures so that you have the best possible chance of completing the intended goal with out SNAFU, FUBAR, or general CF as Doing It Right. Then, there is more than one way that may be Doing It Right.The original way came directly from long cave penetrations but will not be optimal for all teams in all conditions and all objectives. DIR is not stagnant. I would assume the most basic principle of DIR to be "Thinking" about and discussing the options, before coming to the best conclusion. If you're suggesting that things are beyond discussion and should just be "accepted". Then, you really are the stereotype of the unthinking lemming. "Sometimes, ya' just have to have Faith, my children" should not be part of this forum.

And yes,........that may involve repeatedly discussing under which curcumstances Dual Bladder wings may be the right way, or the wrong way. But if you silence the discussion, no right thinking diver should give much concern to what is in the DIR Forum.

constant change just to streamline is non-productive. Consistency in standards and procedures are more critical. You are correct in that there are many ways to do it right. The thought is that if everyone chooses a different way of doing it right, then it's wrong. Slight differences exist in every DIR diver. It's the underlying majory philisophical outlook that stays constant.

Chris

 

[dsteding]

I would assume the most basic principle of DIR to be "Thinking" about and discussing the options, before coming to the best conclusion. If you're suggesting that things are beyond discussion and should just be "accepted". Then, you really are the stereotype of the unthinking lemming. "Sometimes, ya' just have to have Faith, my children" should not be part of this forum.

I totally agree that the basic principle is to be a thinking diver-see my post that I composed as you were composing yours. My point is that sometimes things have been beaten to death, and some individuals seem to revel in coming in here and hurling things like "flock" "herd" or "lemming" into the mix. That derails any constructive conversation and gets things to where this thread is rapidly going . . .

It is one thing to have a discussion that starts with "why do we not use a dual bladder wing." It is quite another to have a discussion where you are talking about diving a balanced rig and then have someone come in and say "you all are idiots and lemmings, you MUST dive a dual bladder wing at all times, and with at least 90 pounds of lift."

A subtle distinction for sure, I'd suggest the line from a moderation standpoint is when things cross over from discussing reasoning behind the DIR approach and go to flame wars aimed at DIR in general.