The depth shall be 60, 60 shall the depth be, 61 is right out unless your AOW certified????

[2airishuman]

Can you be more specific about what they told you? I haven't dived with that particular dive op, but I have dived with several other Upper Keys ops.

It didn't affect me because I was there to go to Molasses Reef, near the sunken windlass, which isn't more than about 30' deep (as I recall). I had completed my OWD certification a day or two before. The concession appeals to some of the most casual divers, and most of their dives are shallow.

They did have a little sign posted with the depth "limits" for OW and AOW divers (or equivalent) from various agencies, and I gathered that they do enforce them, particularly when they dive the Spiegel Grove.

 

[2airishuman]

I dove for 17 years before I got a c-card. I was fine diving locally, but it was getting more dificult getting fills out of area. More recently, I picked up AOW and Deep to avoid a "you can't dive because you don' have a card",..

The problem is that with the proliferation of available certs, there is a growing number of certs needed to get reliable access to dive sites. OW + AOW + Deep + Nitrox + Solo

Huge hassle and expense for people who learn on their own and by gradually exploring more difficult dives to expand their skills.

 

[jonhall]

My wife had at the time not dove deeper than 30 ft. I took her to vortex FLA to the cave entrance. she nearly crapped when she saw she was at 60' and when we surfaced she was amazed as to why she had so little air. had she ignored her spg and was at 100 ft diving like she was at 30 she would have gone OOA. Its the little things that, to most of us, make no difference but to new divers are new life preserving discoveries. So many like to cling to the REC diving limit and will not consider that with the courses OW AOW DEEP you are only partially certified as a rec diver with only OW.

So the argument here for me is that the c-cards don't mean much. How can an agency or any of its affiliates recognize me as having the qualifications (CERTIFY) of diving at any depth, whether it be,

OW, where one only performs 4 checkout dives (in my case 2 of the 4 reaching a 60 ft depth) or AOW where one only has to perform 1 deep dive (mine reaching 82 ft, but now because I did this and 3 other specialty dives in 45 ft water and one specialty on the boat, I can be certified to 100 ft.)

doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The OW manual doesn't get to a point where it says, "STOP!, You may not go below 60 ft.so there is no need to know how things are different at a greater depth," but instead gives information regarding changes below that point.The AOW manual doesn't get to a point where it says, "Stop, you may not go below 100 ft," but does read, "Although 40m/130 ft has been set as the maximum, for general purposes, you probably want to treat 30m/100 ft as the optimal maximum limit....." It goes on to give 4 practical reasons you shouldn't go below 100 ft., which is the same information given in the OW manual (although in my old manual, there is no depth attached to the info.)

Did you tell your wife you were going deeper? I don't see that situation having anything to do with being certified to a depth but instead simply not having enough experience. More diving, with an explanation (dive plan) of how deep a dive will be and/or an instructor will lead to a diver becoming more comfortable. The knowledge gained in a course/book can't be dismissed obviously, but getting in the water and applying skills learned (checking spg, breath control, safety stops, checking NDL, etc...) is what, IMO, will qualify a diver to complete dives at various depths.

How, before getting an AOW certification a couple of weeks ago, was I not qualified to go below 60 ft. when I possess the same skills needed in scuba whether going to 60 ft or 100 ft and have had the experience of a large portion of my dives being below 60 ft? That is an argument that goes on quite a bit on SB.

No answers here; just spouting off!!

 

[Gareth J]

You need to remember that you are talking about two different things, one is quantifiable, the other isn't:
1. Qualification - a piece of paper that says you have done a course.
2. Experience.

Having a qualification does not mean you have experience of this type of diving. From a skipper/insurers pointof view a qualification is quantifiable. It show the individual SHOULD have been capable of completing the dive safely, because he had completed a course and been signed off.

Once upon a time, experience was the important factor, qualification was not important. HOWEVER, experience is not quantifiable, log books can be faked, and a lot of experienced divers don't fill in log books anyway.

Part of the problem is caused by litigation. Once only a problem in North America, it has been imported into the UK.
There are two issues;
1/ the family may sue at the loss of a loved one.
2/ More recently, individuals don't take responsibility for there own actions, and are likely to sue the buddy/skipper/club/organiser if there is an accident, which they survive, but end up with an injury.

Hence there is now more and more likelihood that failure to prove you are qualified (and therefore in theory) are capable of doing the dive or determining if it is safe to do the dive.

As we all know, experience is far more important than qualification.

Gareth

 

[Colliam7]

The problem is that with the proliferation of available certs, there is a growing number of certs needed to get reliable access to dive sites. OW + AOW + Deep + Nitrox + Solo

Interesting comment. Could you offer some examples of where these certifications are required for 'reliable access to dive sites'? Not agreeing or disagreeing, just interested in how you have experienced this issue affecting your dives.

 

[dmaziuk]

A CESA can be problematical if you are not well trained in doing it. Remember, CESA means "Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent." If you ditch your scuba and BCD, and swim fast to the surface, you risk AGE (to throw another acronym in there--Arterial Gas Embolism), and that can be very quickly fatal.

Sure. But, safe ascent rate is 30 fpm. This means you need 3 minutes to "safely" come up from 90 feet. I am fairly certain that I cannot do it and that somewhere halfway up my urge to breathe will push me over to "better SWBO/AGE/DCS topside than this" ascent speed.

 

[Killerflyingbugs]

CESA is a last resort, 30 fpm is out at that point. The point is to get to the surface and not drown, better bent than dead. Some agencies still teach that 60 fpm is acceptable.

 

[2airishuman]

Interesting comment. Could you offer some examples of where these certifications are required for 'reliable access to dive sites'? Not agreeing or disagreeing, just interested in how you have experienced this issue affecting your dives.

Well, I have an upcoming charter scheduled to dive the Vandenberg where the operator has made it very clear that they expect to see AOW and Nitrox certs before I get on the boat. Getting those certs involved a weekend and $500. I learned zero from the Nitrox class and very little from the AOW class. Access to two of the dive sites I use often (the Madeira in Lake Superior and Lac Lavon near me) is controlled by government agencies. Both require certification, one actually wants to look at the card. I'm concerned that one day they'll start asking for solo certs and (for the Madeira) AOW, but they haven't yet.

 

[Altamira]

Sure. But, safe ascent rate is 30 fpm. This means you need 3 minutes to "safely" come up from 90 feet. I am fairly certain that I cannot do it and that somewhere halfway up my urge to breathe will push me over to "better SWBO/AGE/DCS topside than this" ascent speed.

1. A CESA is an emergency procedure, and one from 90' is a far more serious emergency than a
CESA from 60' or above. In that kind of situation, all of the "recommended" ascent rates are irrelevant if you drown getting up to the surface. Yes, you might get bent or have any number of other issues relating to ascending too fast, but drowning is going to be a full stop for you.
2. The 30 fpm ascent rate is a new recommendation, giving you more of a safety pad to off-gas, especially from a deeper dive. However, divers have been safely ascending at 60 fpm for over 50 years, and I doubt anyone doing a CESA is going to try to ascend at 30 fpm unless they have the lungs of a very well trained and fit free diver.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

Sure. But, safe ascent rate is 30 fpm. This means you need 3 minutes to "safely" come up from 90 feet. I am fairly certain that I cannot do it and that somewhere halfway up my urge to breathe will push me over to "better SWBO/AGE/DCS topside than this" ascent speed.

A couple of things. First, SWBO, or Shallow Water Blackout, is not in the cards for a controlled emergency swimming ascent. SWBO is a condition whereby trained free divers breath-hold from the surface to depth, stay too long after having hyperventilated to blow off CO2 (the "must breath" signal comes from CO2 buildup, not from oxygen depletion), and ascend still holding their surface air breath with lessening pressures causing the potential for the oxygen in the blood to reverse and go from the blood back into the lungs, causing blackout.

For an CESA, you are starting out with compressed air at the ambient pressure where you started the ascent, and it expands as you swim toward the surface. That gives you the equivalent of several breaths of air on the way to the surface. The use of the word "controlled" means that you are swimming to the surface, rather than attempting a "buoyant ascent" with an inflated BCD or life vest, or having dropped your weights. There is no restriction to 30 ft/minute for a CESA, but you do swim to the surface, exhaling all the while. For those who have never read Jacques Cousteau's and James Dugan's book, "The Silent World," here is a short exerpt from the 1950s.

...Dumas planned the diving courses for the fleet aqualung divers, two of whom are to be carried on each French naval vessel. He immerses the novices first in shallow water to bring them through the fetal stage that took us years--that of seeing through the clear window of the mask, experiencing the ease of automatic bretahing, and learning that useless motion is the enemy of undersea swimming. On his second dive the trainee descends fifty feet on a rope and returns, getting a sense of pressure changes and testing his ears. The instructor startles the class with the third lesson. The students go down with heavy weights and sit on the floor fifty feet down. The teacher removes his mask and passes it around the circle. He molds the mask again, full of water, One strong nasal exhalation blows all the water through the flanges of the mask. Then he bids the novices emulate him. They learn that it is easy to stop off their nasal passages while the mask is off and breathe as usual through the mouthgrip.

A subsequent lesson finds the class convened at the bottom and again their attendance is assured by weights. The professor removes his mask. Then he removes his mouthpiece, throws the breathing tube loop back over his head and unbuckles the aqualung harness. He lays all his diving equipment on the sand and stands naked except for his breechclout. With sure, unhurried gestures he resumes the equipment, blowing his mask and swallowing a cupfull of water in the breathing tubes. The demonstration is not difficult for a person who can hold a lungful of air for a half minute.

By this time, the scholars realize they are learning by example. They remove their diving equipment entirely, put it back on, and await the praise of the teacher. The next problem is that of removing all equipment and exchanging it among each other. People who do this gain confidence in their ability to live under the sea.

At the end of the course the honor students swim down to a hundred feet, remove all equipment and return to the surface naked. The baccalaureate is an enjoyable rite. As they soar with their original lungful, the air expands progressively in the journey through lessening pressures, issuing a continuous stream of bubbles from puckered lips...
Cousteau, Jacques and James Dugan, The Silent World, Harper & Brothers Publishers, New York, 1953, pages 179-180.

This used to be a part of training. In my LA County diving course in 1963, we did a CESA from about 35 feet in Yaquina Bay during our last checkout dive. And, by the way, a CESA from 90 feet is no more serious than from 60 feet, and only necessitates swimming an extra 30 feet. What is serious is if someone does any ascent, be it from ten feet to 100 feet, holding his or her breath. The last thirty feet is more hazardous than deeper parts of the ascents, as that is where the air expands the most. You won't drown doing an CESA, as you will have plenty of air. And if you have stayed away from the "knife edge" of the no-decompression limits (another concept we used to teach), decompression sickness is only a very remote possibility.

SeaRat