The depth shall be 60, 60 shall the depth be, 61 is right out unless your AOW certified????

[packrat12]

..For about 10 years now I have regularly challenged people when they keep repeating the clichés about instruction being dumbed down in recent years, etc. etc. etc. I ask people to give specific examples, and they never can. ....

I have mentioned directly how the courses have been dumbed down over the years - you just choose to ignore those examples with simplistic answers such as we are more efficient now.

1. In the 1984, training took over 5 weeks, multiple meetings in person for OW training. I started mine (YMCA) in 5/19/84 and finished 7/2/84. We met at least on Tuesdays, Thursdays and 1 or 2 days during the weekend. The shorter courses were just starting in our area after about '85. The present course, no matter how efficient you think it is cannot be as thorough in training. Now, if you pass a skill 1 time (no matter how many tries) it can be called good.

2. In the YMCA course ('84), we learned about Archimedes' principle, Boyle's law, Henry's law, Charles' law, Dalton's law, Diffusion, most common medical conditions, O-tox, ppo2, mixed gasses, regulator design, valve design, tank markings etc. We spent a lot of time on tables and even practiced deco tables. We were regularly quizzed and tested on them. My instructor went out of his way and also got ALL of us CPR certified. We assembled gear up to several times a day for each of those training days, which were at least 4 hrs. Any one skill was done numerous times by everyone. If anyone had an issue, they would be able to practice it with the instructor until they could get it right regularly. In watching the changes from '84 until current with numerous friends and family members that have gone through the OW courses, these skills are not there. They can do them but often barely. I personally know that many of my skills learned in '84 are still with me today. They were 'burned' into me and have been called upon from time to time.

3. I was there for my wife's whopping 2 week course in 1992. By that point, if you could not do a skill, you would get no additional time as the instructor did not have it. I had to fill in the additional training at home with her. I would suggest that this often creates a 'nervous' diver as they are not sure of themselves. By my daughter's time, it is even less time then my wife's course although we got a private instructor who was more apt to tailor her course and was not doing it for the money. Again, no matter how efficient the training, you get less instructor time to hone basic skills that are needed.

Blended training theory is great but you need to develop skills and that takes regular repetition.As a CFI, I would not even remotely say a student could be a pilot without significant flight training! Many skills were practiced from the first day and every training day after. A diver cannot become a proficient diver without significant skill training in person, in water with an instructor. Every skill has an objective, element and result. Just because they are done once does not mean that they were learned.

The real problem is that if an instructor today was to bill what is truly necessary for in depth training, fewer students yet would become divers as it would be far too expensive. The old joke "difference between a ___ Instructor and a pizza - the pizza can feed a family of 4" is a real issue. Instructors that rely on the income cannot make much money even in the current model. My instructor was doing it for fun and sharing his skills. As a result, he was more dedicated to the person. His financial situation did not depend on students. This is not a ding against full time instructors but rather against the system. Flight instruction also has the exact same issues, but those pilots are typically trying to become airline pilots or the equivalent and can sacrifice for a while.

I also have read my original OW book twice. Absolutely no mention of depth. It even talked about common effects at 175' or deeper. We calculated deco from it. It regularly talked about 132'. The only limitation that was specifically addressed was a recommendation for No-Deco. All the tables in it went to 190' (US-Navy).

As for AOW, the primary thing I had not done was lift bag work. Everything else had been taught to me in the YMCA OW course much earlier. I had an instructor that I had known and dove with since I learned to dive and we often talked about the differences in training. He stated a very simple paraphrased statement: "The longer course was better but if I did not teach the shorter courses, no one would learn from me."Once one agency started teaching shorter courses, they all had to come in line for survival.

 

[packrat12]

Buddy breathing was NOT optional - it was the only way to share air when I was certified.

Also, to the best of my knowledge, performance of a CESA from 60 feet was required for PADI certification. This was made very clear during my dive class by the instructor.

We even learned to buddy breath from a snorkel in the pool during our training. Buddy breathing most definitely was not optional in my course. To quote my original OW book in front of me: "...it is imperative to his ultimate safety that the student diver become skilled in the buddy breathing procedure." Octopus regulators (I still will call them that) were optional when I learned also. My wife also did both in 1992. My daughter did not in 2011.

As for the emergency ascent, ours was from 30'. It was our first skill after getting into Crystal River Kings spring during our first set of certification dives. We also went to the bottom and in the cavern during this dive.

 

[boulderjohn]

Buddy breathing was NOT optional - it was the only way to share air when I was certified.

Also, to the best of my knowledge, performance of a CESA from 60 feet was required for PADI certification. This was made very clear during my dive class by the instructor.

Read carefully. Yes, buddy breathing was originally a requirement, but for many, many years it was optional before it was dropped.

Rad carefully. I asked if dong MULTIPLE CESAs was ever a requirement. I know tht doing CESA's has always been required, but to my knowledge doing MULTIPLE CESAs during the OW course was never required.

 

[boulderjohn]

1. In the 1984, training took over 5 weeks, multiple meetings in person for OW training. I started mine (YMCA) in 5/19/84 and finished 7/2/84. We met at least on Tuesdays, Thursdays and 1 or 2 days during the weekend. The shorter courses were just starting in our area after about '85. The present course, no matter how efficient you think it is cannot be as thorough in training. Now, if you pass a skill 1 time (no matter how many tries) it can be called good.

I have only a few minutes before being gone for quite some time, so this will be brief.

You keep referring to the era when instruction was delivered through lecture, the very worst method of information transfer, as the golden age of scuba instruction. Using better instructional methodologies that take less time is not dumbing things down.

Now, if you pass a skill 1 time (no matter how many tries) it can be called good.

That is simply not true. Under the standards, your performance of a skill can only be passed if you can demonstrate to the satisfaction of the instructor that you have mastered it to the point that you can do it successfully from that point on. One successful attempt after many failures does not meet that definition. But, then, you knew that, didn't you?

Remember that in this thread, I am challenging the assertion that instruction now has taken things out of the OW class and moved it to more advanced classes. If you go all the way back to the 1960s, you will find many changes. You will find some things have been taken out, and you will find that many things have been added. Much of this is due to changing equipment. Much of this is do to changing understanding of educational theory. Much of this is due to the fact that an honest appraisal of some things that were taught indicated that they had no real value in the course to begin with. One example would be that we no longer teach students to breathe from a tank that has no regulator by feathering the valve and breathing from the explosion of bubbles. If you want to call that dumbing down the course, knock yourself out. I won't argue it.

 

[boulderjohn]

Risking a slight hijack of the thread: Why? I've actually trained buddy breathing with my regular buddy, thinking it might come in handy if the smelly stuff really hit the rotating ventilator device. Is that a bad idea, and, if so, why?

It's based on research.

Let's start with the study of buddy breathing done by U/C. Berkely professor and former NAUI chief Glen Egstrom. His study indicated that it took an average of 17 successful buddy breathing experiences in training to make a buddy team proficient enough to be sure to be able to do it in the real world. His study also indicated that the skill is perishable--if you don't keep practicing it, you will lose it.

Other studies of accidents in which buddy breathing was used indicated that you were all too likely to have two victims rather than one. This happened in the only case I know if in recent years, which occurred in Florida. A woman rented a regulator set with no alternate, and ended up sharing air with a guy who went OOA lobstering and overweighted to the point he could not stay on the surface. They both drowned.

The problem is that for OW diving, the alternative to buddy breathing--CESA--is a much safer alternative.

 

[admikar]

Buddy breathing was in my training syllabus, both pool, and checkout dives. Ascent/swimming in both octo and primary share configuration,as donor and receiver. It even went one step further,to do it w/out mask.
CESA was explained, but not practiced (although we did have to doff all of our equipment in 15 ft pool, swim across to the wall and surface and then do the opposite).

 

[Storker]

It's based on research.

Let's start with the study of buddy breathing done by U/C. Berkely professor and former NAUI chief Glen Egstrom. His study indicated that it took an average of 17 successful buddy breathing experiences in training to make a buddy team proficient enough to be sure to be able to do it in the real world. His study also indicated that the skill is perishable--if you don't keep practicing it, you will lose it.

Other studies of accidents in which buddy breathing was used indicated that you were all too likely to have two victims rather than one. This happened in the only case I know if in recent years, which occurred in Florida. A woman rented a regulator set with no alternate, and ended up sharing air with a guy who went OOA lobstering and overweighted to the point he could not stay on the surface. They both drowned.

The problem is that for OW diving, the alternative to buddy breathing--CESA--is a much safer alternative.

OK, to put it bluntly: If you had a regular buddy, would you train buddy breathing with them, or do you think that both of you would be better off without, relying rather on CESA in case the manure really hit the ventilator device?

I'm not soliciting advice, I'm just wondering what you personally would do.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I would think that buddy breathing was discontinued because they required that an octopus be used on all training dives and an octopus gradually became standard equipment. It is simpler to use an octopus than share a single second stage while buddy breathing. There is also the issue of disease transmission during training which can be avoided by eliminating buddy breathing.

I also think removing this skill from the requirements made the over all course simpler and easier. I am not sure I agree that ditching your buddy and heading off to the surface in a CESA is a better choice than buddy breathing for depths of over 40 or 50 feet. In fact, if both divers are adequately trained and competent, then buddy breathing is definitely better than a CESA.

With regard to the dumbing down of classes..It amazes me that we constantly read about certified divers who are having trouble with mask clearing and mask removal. When I took my basic scuba class we had to do a lot of practice in the pool, I think it was 10 weeks of 1.5 hr pool sessions once a week. Not only did we do buddy breathing, but we did no mask breathing a lot and we also had drills where all 10 students are put in the bottom of the diving well and on each corner was a scuba tank. the students wore no tanks and had to swim from one station to the next and when they arrived at the next station, they had to wait their turn as 2-3 or 4 people shared a single second stage. The diving well buddy breathing thing was continued as the tanks ran out and we eventually had the whole class trying to stay down on two tanks.

This is the type of training which exposes student's weaknesses and provides a much greater degree of confidence when diving. it is hard to imagine that anyone who went through this much training was going to have a problem with mask removal.

Yes the PADI courses have been dummed down and streamlined. As a former PADI Instructor, I was actually amazed at how little time was required to teach people to dive when you follow the recommended course outline and sequential training modules. It was extremely efficient, however I never felt it was adequate (for most people) and always encouraged my students to immediately sign up for an advanced class so that they could get more training and experience.

Also, I only had one situation where a buddy signaled out of air and signaled to share air when we were both diving regulators that did not have octopuses and we both had BC's which did not have power inflators and we were both heavy with lobster bags at 90 feet. I was so angry my buddy ran to zero, when I knew i had about 3 or 400 lbs, but we took off swimming for the surface together and I never gave him my regulator. I grabbed onto him and figured he would take it when he needed it, but he just sipped his air and we did a quick ascent and he never took the regulator. In a true emergency, the thought of donating your only regulator IS a little intimidating. Handing off an octopus is a lot easier and less stressful.

 

[packrat12]

You keep referring to the era when instruction was delivered through lecture, the very worst method of information transfer, as the golden age of scuba instruction. Using better instructional methodologies that take less time is not dumbing things down.

Lecture method??? Really?? We were in the pool a lot more hours working on our skills then the students of today. Yes there was more lectures, homework, studies but there also was a LOT more skill work.

..It amazes me that we constantly read about certified divers who are having trouble with mask clearing and mask removal...

That was the problem my wife was having. She had at most 2 attempts in class and could not do it. I had to do her pool work and teach her that skill. She then passed the class with only 1 demo, but she has never the problem again. What about those without a current diver? I also have watched a significant portion of the divers I have seen trained recently also have mask clearing problems. I know I was trained to dive without one during my OW. We had to swim a couple of pool lengths without it. Recently had current knock off my mask. I was able to catch it and then dive down 80' without to get out of the strong current. Not even a consideration for me. I credit the class with starting the skill set.

 

[TMHeimer]

John, Thanks for doing the research, me being lazy. I recall you asking about that unconscious diver scenario a while back. Too bad we don't have info. on all the rescue skills--particularly regarding panicked diver at surface or below, slowing a panicked rapid ascent, etc. During those past discussions others pointed out that all that stuff may be piling on for a brand new diver--maybe so. I always felt that even if not practised in the course such rescue info. should be at least written down for the new diver to study--for sure not the best way, but at least something better than two brand new divers buddying up with no idea what to do. But, all old discussions.

DumpsterD, That seems like great stuff you did back then with all that swimming around and breathing off tanks taking turns. My educated guess is that a fair % of new OW graduates today would have major trouble with this with the reduced training hours. Being comfortable enough in water to find this easy probably means having a fair bit of overall "water" experience before signing up. I've witnessed that quite a few people don't seem to.