The depth shall be 60, 60 shall the depth be, 61 is right out unless your AOW certified????

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Ah, but I think you said yourself that it's not the air you have, it's the CO2 build-up that triggers "running out of air" signal. That's kind of what I was getting at with the O2 reserves in the bloodstream and tissue: because of that reserve you may not even need the air to keep going, but you'll still get an urge to breathe that you'll have to fight on the way up.

I did my OW checkout CESA from the bottom of the lake @ some 25-30 feet in 7 mm suits and weighted accordingly -- no problem there. As you say, shouldn't be a problem from that depth.
dmaziuk,

Remember, you are "exhaling" some of that CO2, and gaining actual air (21% oxygen) available due to the lessening pressures. I don't think there would be that build-up of CO2 unless you held your breath, which of course could be disastrous. This swim from 75 feet would be accomplished in about a minute.

SeaRat
 
dmaziuk,

Remember, you are "exhaling" some of that CO2, and gaining actual air (21% oxygen) available due to the lessening pressures. I don't think there would be that build-up of CO2 unless you held your breath, which of course could be disastrous. This swim from 75 feet would be accomplished in about a minute.

SeaRat
I doubt anyone would take 1 min to come up from 75' in an OOA situation.
 
I doubt anyone would take 1 min to come up from 75' in an OOA situation.
I agree, it took me about thirty seconds to make that swim this morning. But I think it took me a bit longer coming up from the working dive in Yaquina Bay, as we were swimming up a line on a diagonal, against some current toward the surface, and I was staying with the divers I had been photographing on the ascent.

SeaRat
 
I will be building on these entries as I find them. Here are the PADI requirements for watermanship:
PADI from their current (2015) manual:
  1. Waterskills Assessment

    Before Open Water Dive 2, have student divers demonstrate that they can comfortably maintain themselves in water too deep in which to stand by completing a 10-minute swim/ oat without using any swim aids.

    At some point before certi cation, have students complete a 200 metre/yard continuous surface swim or a 300 metre/ yard swim with mask, ns and snorkel.

    If conditions warrant, students may wear an exposure suit as long as they are weighted for neutral buoyancy.
    http://www.scubadivinginstructors.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/2015-Padi-Instructor-Manual.pdf
NAUI, 1971 Blue Book:
6. The required water skills which are to be covered during a Basic Course are:
a) Swimming Skills (No Equipment)
.....1) Distance swim of 220 yards, non-top any stroke.
.....2) Survival swim for 10 minutes, treading, bobbing, floating, drownproofing, etc.
.....3) Underwater swim of 20 years.
b) Skin Diving Skills (Mask, Snorkel, Fins)
.....1) Distance swim of 440 yards, nonstop, using no hands.
.....2) Complete rescue of another diver in deep water.
.....3) Practice and perform without stress, proper techniques including: water entries/exits, surface dives, swimming with fins, clearing the snorkel, ditching the weight belt, buoyancy control with the personal floatation vest, underwater swimming and surfacing.
c) Scuba Diving Skills (Skin and Scuba Equipment)
.....1) Repeat all listed skin diving skills while using scuba.
.....2) Tow another fully equipped scuba diver 100 yards.
.....3) Practice and perform without stress, proper techniques including: mask and mouthpiece clearing, buddy breathing, emergency swimming ascents, alternating between snorkel and scuba.
d) Open Water Skin and Scuba Diving
.....1) Perform without stress: water entries/exits, surface dives, buoyancy control and surfacing techniques that are required to do surface, underwater and survival swimming iwth both skin and scuba equipment.
.....2) Make a complete rescue of a buddy diver.
.....3) With scuba equipment: clear mask and mouthpiece, buddy breathe, alternate between snorkel and scuba and make a controlled emergency swimming ascent.

These are not directly comparable, as the old NAUI course requirements were done during the course. PADI currently does require a CESA:
Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent (CESA) — Perform a controlled emergency swimming ascent from a depth of 6-9 metres/20-30 feet and establish positive buoyancy at the surface.

Conduct CESA following the procedures outlined below.

Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent

Brie ng the Skill

Instruct student divers to:

  • Retain their regulators in their mouths.

  • Not drop their weights. Remind students that in an actual emergency, they ditch weights only when any doubt exists about their ability to reach the surface.

  • Not use the control line for assistance — the line is
    only for the instructor to use for control and emergency stopping.

  • Maintain a normal ascent rate.

  • Make a continuous sound throughout the ascent.

  • Resume normal breathing if you stop the ascent, or if they experience any di culty.

  • Orally in ate the BCD or drop weights upon reaching the surface.

    Setting Up the Exercise

    Use a vertical control line buoyed by a surface oat. Ensure that the line is either tied o rmly at the bottom or held down with su cient weight to enable you to stop the ascent at any time by grasping it with a hand or leg wrap while holding the student rmly. Conduct the skill one student

    at a time while maintaining physical contact with both the

    student and the control line.

    Site

    Begin this skill at a depth of at least 6 metres/20 feet but not exceeding 9 metres/30 feet.

    Conducting the Exercise:
    1. Grasp the student with one hand and maintain contact with the line.

    2. Give the up signal to begin the ascent. e student begins to exhale while emitting a continuous sound.

    3. e student kicks to start, then reduces e ort and continues kicking. e student doesn’t use the control line during the ascent. Ensure that the student keeps the regulator and weights in place. e student’s air remains turned on throughout the exercise. Don’t help the student ascend.

    4. e student maintains contact with the BCD or dry suit de ator mechanism to vent excess air during ascent.

    5. Observe and maintain control during the ascent, not exceeding 18 metres/60 feet per minute. e student should be held near and just below you, which allows you to listen for the student’s sound and tends to make the student look up toward you. Watch to be sure the student exhales continuously. Stop the ascent if there is any doubt. If you must interrupt the ascent, have the student repeat the exercise from the beginning.

    6. Upon surfacing, have the student orally in ate the BCD or drop weights. Caution to look for divers below before releasing weight. Wait for the student to become calm and relaxed before engaging in other training exercises.http://www.scubadivinginstructors.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/2015-Padi-Instructor-Manual.pdf
SeaRat
 
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- Abrupt internal failure of the 1st stage regulator (on the now nearly-universal upstream opening diaphragm regulators, this can be caused by delamination of the HP seat, breakage of the pin that opens the HP valve, or clogging by debris)
- Clogged passages in the dip tube or tank valve
- Mouthpiece separates from 2nd stage (you or I could switch to a secondary, or breathe from the 2nd stage without a mouthpiece, but PADI doesn't train people to do either of those things)
- Ripped diaphragm, folded exhaust valve, or damaged housing in the 2nd stage, an astute diver would switch to a secondary or ride the purge button, again not taught and not something everyone will figure out


I have seen three separate firsthand reports of abrupt 1st stage failures on SB that led to complete inability to deliver air, although one was a reg that was far overdue for service.

It sounds like you (already) have a better handle than I about what failures could possibly cause a single hose regulator to STOP (completely) delivering air to the diver at depth.

If you read discussions on this forum, one of the most common scuba failures is a mouth piece falling off. Of course you can use a reg with no mouhpiece but if you inhale water during the event you will be choking and trying to cough and in very cold water it will be difficult for the diver to effectively seal their numb lips on a reg with no mouthpiece (one reason why I use aircraft safety wire or a constrictor knot and string rather than zip ties.)

However there is another potential failure that has given me nightmares for a long time. Let's say you are catching lobsters and you are low on air and should be going up, but you see one more bug and he goes far back in a small cave or ledge. As you drop down, you vent your BC because you want to be heavy and stable and be able to work the lobster without swimming etc. So you have 600 psi and are at 80 feet or so, you have been swimming for most of the dive and have been trying to not use excessive air, so your heart rate is up a little, but you are controlling your breathing.

You reach for the bug but he shoots further under the ledge and you instantly and instinctively lunge forward and try to catch the lobster. Unfortunately, you just slammed the reg into the roof of the ledge and you ripped the hose at the collar at the first stage connection. Alternatively, you could simply snap the hose off at the threaded connection.. it is only brass. Now you are wedged a little in the hole, and air is screaming out of the hose.

You wiggle out of the ledge, you now have 200 lbs of air and as you look at your pressure gage it gets hard to breath, You get one more breath as the final bits of air exit the hole in your hose and you slam the BC inflator into the UP position.. It farts a little and all air stops coming from your reg. You are out of breath, scared to death and you are 8 or 10 lbs negative, have no means to inflate the BC (orally or otherwise) and are essentially pinned to the bottom with a bag of heavy lobsters clipped to your BC.

If you don't have a pony bottle, dont have a buddy, and don't have ditchable lead and can drop the bag of lobsters super fast.. you just are NOT going to be able to swim 80 or 90 feet in that condition. You are screwed.

I think a similar failure could occur on a yoke regulator if you slam it on the ceiling and the pressure is low and the reg shifts and the o-ring extrudes at the valve face.. I think that is possible, when the tank pressure is low.

In any regard, it is ridiculous to dive in such a manner that we assume that we can always sip our air for the ascent. It just might NOT be there when you really need it.

Also, an observation from my long list of "stupid human tricks".. if you do have to make an ascent and you have near zero air in the tank and it is just dribbling out on ascent.. it is much, much better to press the purge button and "accept" the slow delivery of the air and inhale it slowly, rather than sucking super hard and fast and pulling a huge vacuum that does not serve to deliver air at an increased rate. It is so much easier to accept a slow stream of air compared to SUCKING super hard and just getting a tiny bit of air. I guess it is more psychological than anything, but the difference is dramatic.

If you don't believe me, here is a simple at home game to play.. walk briskly for maybe 90 seconds, enough to get your breathing rate up a tiny bit and you can feel your heart pumping more than resting... then take a normal straw, stick it in your mouth and continue walking. Breath only through the single small straw and try to inhale really fast and hard .. sucking a vacuum. I think you will agree that it will quickly become uncomfortable..

Then rest and do it again, but this time concentrate on taking a really long slooow relaxed inhalations. Don't try to inhale too hard.. often you can calm down and continue to walk for quite a while on this reduced air flow. This is analogous to passively accepting the limited air flow from purging of a near empty tank.

As for some of the other comments, a CESA from 30 or 35 feet, really should be pretty easy for anyone if they're not diving in a super negative condition.
 
You wiggle out of the ledge, you now have 200 lbs of air and as you look at your pressure gage it gets hard to breath, You get one more breath as the final bits of air exit the hole in your hose and you slam the BC inflator into the UP position.. It farts a little and all air stops coming from your reg. You are out of breath, scared to death and you are 8 or 10 lbs negative, have no means to inflate the BC (orally or otherwise) and are essentially pinned to the bottom with a bag of heavy lobsters clipped to your BC.

If you don't have a pony bottle, dont have a buddy, and don't have ditchable lead and can drop the bag of lobsters super fast.. you just are NOT going to be able to swim 80 or 90 feet in that condition. You are screwed.

I agree 100% this situation is why you learn how to ditch your gear in a hurry.

I think a similar failure could occur on a yoke regulator if you slam it on the ceiling and the pressure is low and the reg shifts and the o-ring extrudes at the valve face.. I think that is possible, when the tank pressure is low.

This is why I dive DIN, that and I like HP tanks:D.

In any regard, it is ridiculous to dive in such a manner that we assume that we can always sip our air for the ascent. It just might NOT be there when you really need it.

Again I agree 100% and why I practice CESAs on a regular basis, a redundant air supply is a better option though.
 
I agree, it took me about thirty seconds to make that swim this morning. But I think it took me a bit longer coming up from the working dive in Yaquina Bay, as we were swimming up a line on a diagonal, against some current toward the surface, and I was staying with the divers I had been photographing on the ascent.

SeaRat
If you are OOA you dont care what current you have so long as your trajectory is upward. and you need to cut depth in half fast. Panic is setting in and slowing ascent is not a thought unless you have had to do it before. first time OOA's at 100 ft are not calm they will rocket to the surface. You don't find out you are OOA till you inhale so that means you don't have a full set of lungs to start with. Panic is multiplied at that point. The only saving grace is if the OOA is low tank air and not reg failure.
 
If you are OOA you dont care what current you have so long as your trajectory is upward. and you need to cut depth in half fast. Panic is setting in and slowing ascent is not a thought unless you have had to do it before. first time OOA's at 100 ft are not calm they will rocket to the surface. You don't find out you are OOA till you inhale so that means you don't have a full set of lungs to start with. Panic is multiplied at that point. The only saving grace is if the OOA is low tank air and not reg failure.
This is an interesting statement, and should not be followed. Panic should not be setting in! The diver doesn't have to "cut depth in half fast." That is a prescription for receiving an overpressure injury to the diver's lungs. The diver in an OOA (out-of-air) situation should be able to easily access the surface. Remember this graph:


This shows that even if a diver exhales all the air (which we almost never do), the diver still have between one and one-and-a-half liters of air in your lungs. At 100 feet (four atmospheres absolute pressure) that air is multiplied by 4 as the pressure releases. Say this diver has 2 liters of air in his/her lungs. As he/she ascends, 2 x 4 = 8 liters of air in his/her lungs, but your capacity is usually only about 4-5 liters. This represents one to two breaths of air in you lungs as you ascend. This is easily handled, but NOT if you panic.

If the thought of this situation sets a diver's mind into a panic, the diver probably should not be there in the first place. This is because the diver is not comfortable in all situations.

SeaRat
 
No. 3 seems a little demanding
Oops, I hate auto-fill on these computer systems. That should be "yards," and not "years." ;)

John
 

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