The big guys quietly pushing out the little guy

[muddiver]

I don't see your point because most LDS don't stock a lot of the equipment that a PSD team would need with the exception of the basic cylinders, air fills, o-rings, etc. There are very few LDS that stock commercial diver equipment and try to cater to both industries, like the now defunct Aqua Tech in San Diego. AGA masks, large lift bags, diver umbilicles and that kind of stuff are expensive and if they don't sell, they take up a lot of shop space.

 

[ditch-diver]

Good point mud-diver..... which got me thinking. ( a dangerous proposition after only one coffee)

Being a fairly large dive team, outside of fin straps, or a new knife or something, we tend to deal direct with suppliers. We deal directly with Aqua-Lung, OTS, the supplier for Viking, etc without going through any dive shop.

Is that common practice for teams? I always assumed it was. Buying gear for over a hundred divers can get a little pricey..., so we need to be as cost effective as possible. Now you guys are making me feel bad for the LDS..., like I'm taking food out of their kids mouths

 

[BladesRobinson]

When it comes to an "apples for apples" comparison, when the EXACT item your team needs is EXACTLY the item supplied locally, I support buying locally. By doing so, you support the tax base that supports your team. Certainly you need to go with the lowest bid in order to comply with the law but there are often times that a manufacturer will sell at the MSRP (Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price) and the local dive store can offer a discount. On the Aqua Lung site you can find the authorized dealers who can offer equipment at the reduced "Public Safety Diver" price. Some may even discount below the PSD pricing. If you want to download the PSD Aqua Lung pricelist, visit:
http://www.diverescueintl.com/pdfs/Aqua_Lung_PSD_discount_pricelist.pdf

To find authorized Aqua Lung dealers visit:
Authorized Dealers

If you want government pricing on other PSD related equipment (surface supplied air systems, dive helmets, full face masks, u/w com systems, etc) please consider Dive Rescue International and ask for "bid pricing."

Regards,

Blades Robinson, Director
Dive Rescue International
www.DiveRescueIntl.com
(800) 248-3483

 

[bridgediver]

Good point mud-diver..... which got me thinking. ( a dangerous proposition after only one coffee)

Being a fairly large dive team, outside of fin straps, or a new knife or something, we tend to deal direct with suppliers. We deal directly with Aqua-Lung, OTS, the supplier for Viking, etc without going through any dive shop.

Is that common practice for teams? I always assumed it was. Buying gear for over a hundred divers can get a little pricey..., so we need to be as cost effective as possible. Now you guys are making me feel bad for the LDS..., like I'm taking food out of their kids mouths

Agree with mudiver as well. I'm all for supporting the LDS but they are really there for the sport diver not PSD teams. The LDS doesn't have what we need for PSD. They can special order it for a special over inflated price but then the PSD team is out of business(!). We got a lot of stuff from our LDS but when you can get stuff for up to half the price by going through the supplier (ie aqualung) its irresponsible of the team to do this with taxpayer's dollars. The taxpayer should not shoulder the load of a failing local business IMO.

Blame the sport diving community if you want to blame anyone for any LDS closing their doors. If they can't make it because the PSD team shops around they probably should close their doors.

Part of the problem with the failing dive business is that it is TOO focused on selling gear. They cert people as fast as they can for as cheap as they can so they can sell them gear (which is where they make all their money). The problem is a fast/cheap course that rarely produces people that will be confident enough to continue to dive and so they never buy gear anyway (rarely does more than 20% of the divers coming out of an OW from our LDS continue to dive and invest in their diving through gear purchase).
The solution (IMO) is to produce GOOD and competent divers so that they are actually comfortable enough to head out into the environment without an instructor. This means LONGER and more EXPENSIVE classes; not the weekend wonder classes they do now. Most LDS don't have the foresight to make their customers happy and confident the just want to sell them as much stuff as they can

 

[ditch-diver]

I Know the dive industry has been studied and studied to see how to make it more viable....

I wonder if there has ever been studies into the length of course, quality of graduating students and the percentage of retention of divers long term? I know that even way back in the day, when our O/W courses were 50 hours long, we'd still only end up with 20-25% of grads still diving a year or so later.

Hmmm...., I wonder Bridge..., can we get some good ol' federal grant dollars to study this? We'd of course have to do some dive travel as part of the grant to 'fully comprehend' the diving universe.

 

[Thalassamania]

Not (that I know of) with publicly available results. Current estimates put the drop out rate as between 80 and 90 percent, but a lot of that depends on your definition of a "drop out."

Using a definition of having made 12 dives in the previous 12 months, five years after taking a university 100 hour course we had a drop out rate that approached zero.

 

[chuck5atm]

I agree that PSD trainers pose no direct threat to the survival of your LDS. It is the fact that SSI as a Certifying Agency should not be endorsing the sale of ANY EQUIPMENT to the End User, that is the Retailers mission. Every LDS decides on what brands they choose to offer. CERTIFYING AGENCIES such as SSI should not. No matter how you look at it when they endorse equipment sales to the end user in any manner it hurts their individual retailers who offer their certification programs. Case in point DRI just posted a link on this thread to Aqualung. Does every SSI facility out there represent that line? That leaves the impression that Sherwood, Oceanic, AERIS etc... Do nothing for the PSD community. If you are a shop owner this effects your business. Perception is everything. Bottom line is that shop owners should think twice about what agency they use for basic certification. After all you have to have an Open-Water certification before you can even think about being a PSD not the other way around.
My question to shop owners is; Does the Agency your associated with sell or endorse the sale of equipment directly to YOUR customers?

 

[Hallmac]

I agree that PSD trainers pose no direct threat to the survival of your LDS. It is the fact that SSI as a Certifying Agency should not be endorsing the sale of ANY EQUIPMENT to the End User, that is the Retailers mission. Every LDS decides on what brands they choose to offer. CERTIFYING AGENCIES such as SSI should not. No matter how you look at it when they endorse equipment sales to the end user in any manner it hurts their individual retailers who offer their certification programs. Case in point DRI just posted a link on this thread to Aqualung. Does every SSI facility out there represent that line? That leaves the impression that Sherwood, Oceanic, AERIS etc... Do nothing for the PSD community. If you are a shop owner this effects your business. Perception is everything. Bottom line is that shop owners should think twice about what agency they use for basic certification. After all you have to have an Open-Water certification before you can even think about being a PSD not the other way around.
My question to shop owners is; Does the Agency your associated with sell or endorse the sale of equipment directly to YOUR customers?

Whoa there Nelly!
Your logic for the argument is spinning circles.

First you use an indirect correlation to "prove" your point. ie.. SSI's partnership with an association that provides merchandise means SSI sells merchandise.

The DRI rep posts an example and leaves an indirect idea. ie... since Aqualung has a PSD pricing others may as well.

You counter with a direct correlation statement claiming that the post proves SSI endorses a product and ignore the indirect.

We have been SSI for many years, they have never directly or indirectly, suggested a product line. I think you are off base with what the "partnership" really is. They are two professional organizations that refer others to each other because referrals are a great thing. If you find something you have been happy with you do the same thing.

 

[ditch-diver]

Having just spent some time browsing through the DRI online catalogue for the first time (and I'll be back.., very nice Blades!!) I must say there is not a lot there that any dive shop could push on open water students.., unless they are in the market for FFM, Viking suits and lift bags etc. I understand where you are coming from chuck..., but I really don't see an issue at a LDS.

My guess is someone taking an O/W course through SSI at a local dive shop is not even going to hear about DRI, let alone DRI pushing SSI into what gear to suggest to students. DRI's market share in the PSD world comes through credibility..., something that could be easily lost if they were to try to PADIfy their business and stared puching into the civilian market. Their connection to SSI is a partnership, not a marriage where the two shall become one. I'm guessing as someone being on the outside but DRI pretty much has their hands full and are not interested in the newbie diver equipment market. Having said that.., if your fears turn out to be right and the do start this selling like you say.., I'd be the first one to jump all over it and probably make a few jokes at their expense. I just don't think what you are worried about is going to happen.

Thal..., near 100 percent retention after 5 years. Wow.., I tip my hat to you sir. Simply outstanding. The recreational market should sit up and take notice. But that is a conversation for another thread (or two or twelve)

 

[bridgediver]

I only say this because some may precieve Blades as biased but the reference to aqualung is FYI to PSDs - aqualung does very well for the PSD community and this board is up to help out other teams; in other words he's trying to help us out. DRI doesn't say "only buy aqualung" (I might though). Its not marketing in this case its just a guy letting other guys know where theres a good deal.

(thanks for posting it Blades)

Another point about OW training. Our team trains divers from scratch (ie we give them their OW). They all start at the bottom even if they already have their OW cert. What is very interesting to me is that the OW certed (or higher) trained guys always struggle more than the guys coming in with zero dive training. They have to unlearn all the bad habits they either developed or were/weren't taught.