The Aqualung Discussion [ Moved ]

[cerich]

I understand. Abandoning select markets to maintain a manufacturer regulated price structure may be the right thing to do for your local dealers, but it also turns the US grey market and certain international "authorized" markets over to the remaining mfgrs who continue to profit from all sources. Unless you are successful in luring US "authorized" dealers away from mfgrs who are not as effectively limiting grey market outlets, the long term effect may not be in the black. Personnaly, I like the idea that some mfgrs have places like LP as an authorized dealer. That tells me their products are good enough to compete in a market with few artificial retail price constraints.

I like Larry's 2nd option. Remove all artificial price constraints and then see who has the best stuff.

We have a great product and great authorized dealers (Mom and Pop and internet stores that are also a LDS).

We have no problem with competetion.

 

[RonFrank]

I am in a unique position in this industry as I've spent a lot of time talking to the presidents, owners, ceo's for many of the scuba companies. And some of them have admited that they have been lying to their reps and dealers for years, saying they don't know where the gray market sources get their gear...

then why can't scubapro, aqualung, etc (limit Grey)? Because they choose not to.

I certainly agree with this 100%. I've been saying the same thing about camera gear for decades. Manufactures pubically denounce grey while doing nothing to prevent it. Why? Because it moves product, and they get the best of both worlds. More sales, and they don't have to warranty those products that sell grey.

In the camera world the better dealers even list grey (as imported) and USA (for USA dealers). It's such a way of doing business that good dealers make the distinction, can be authorized to carry both USA warrenty goods AND still retain their authorized status while offering grey. So in the electronic world not only do manufactures know about it, they sanction it through their dealer policies. That is likely better than the model the Scuba Industry is using.

It's refreshing to hear this from the horses mouth so to speak. Not that I'm calling Larry a horse! :11doh:

I should add, I will not consider AL products in the future. Their treatment of Phil and other retailers is IMO insane, and I will not support such a company.

 

[cerich]

You don't need local camera shops to teach you how to take pictures, the photo market is massive compared to scuba, and local camera stores have been destroyed over the last decade.

Scuba is slightly different but it can be done so the consumer AND the LDS wins.

 

[Diver Dennis]

Larry and I had a discussion about the camera industry not long ago Ron and came to the same conclusion. Here in Canada we still have a lot of local camera shops but in the US many have been put out of business by just those practices. It's getting tougher in Canada too.

True cerich but it's nice to have a familiar face to talk to and equipment you can actually hold in your hand before buying.

 

[RonFrank]

You don't need local camera shops to teach you how to take pictures, the photo market is massive compared to scuba, and local camera stores have been destroyed over the last decade.

Scuba is slightly different but it can be done so the consumer AND the LDS wins.

Well, I've watched as most of the local camera dealers have closed up shop. Many did offer classes, and many continue to do so. While there is no certification involved with taking photo's, and the industry is MUCH larger, there are a lot of similarities. Where do you think LP got it's business model. In fact I'm rather sure they are a branch of 47th photo, so the business model they use comes directly from Photo gear.

Scuba is different because LDS's can generate revenue from things other than retail. Training, and travel are two examples. I personally don't want to see the end of the LDS, but I don't want to see retailers hamstringed by manufactures either. I would like to see the end of grey. In photography grey market ranges from a bit of a savings to people getting ripped off. When I purchase I have to go out of the way to ensure that a dealer is authorized, and selling a US product. Many sell imports, and advertise a US warranty. This is basically a US Mack warranty on Imported products. It makes shopping difficult. I hope this is not where the scuba industry is headed. Currently most *grey* items in scuba are NOT imports which is kinda a fuzzy line, and not what many consider grey at all, just unauthorized, and there is a difference.

 

[cerich]

In fact I'm rather sure they are a branch of 47th photo, so the business model they use comes directly from Photo gear.

Adorama Photo.

 

[RonFrank]

In fact I'm rather sure they are a branch of 47th photo, so the business model they use comes directly from Photo gear.

QUOTE]

Adorama Photo.

Ahh, I sit corrected!

I do appreciate the open honest feedback from both Manufacutres, and retailers on the board. I hope that things work our for Phil, and as I said I will continue to support manufactures and retailers like Zeagle, Oceanic, and Scubatoys who are working on providing quality, and customer service while allowing our retailers to compete in the current changing landscape.

Watching the camea dealers close up shop has been an eye opener, but there are those that are staying alive by changing their business model to complete in a market beyond their storefront.

 

[mdb]

. I have hope that this thread is the butterfly that will cause a dramatic change in the dive industry for the better. JL

homo maris: I have the same hope. Sometimes change is gradual, other times a real about face. This thread, obviously, has "legs" for a reason. Many of the views are from other SCUBA companies, dive retailers, reps, etc. What we all want is an industry that is growing. We have such a great sport. You can dive all your life, all over the world, with great people. There is a sea change coming. This thread, that refuses to die, could well be part of it.

 

[havnmonkey]

This problem is sort of a collision of many "wants'

The consumer wants the freedom to purchase; however they also want protection for what they purchase.

The retailer wants to sell the consumer what they want; however they must protect their business, i.e. competition.

The manufacturer wants to protect their product; but also move it.

Somewhere stuck in the middle is a diver, a LDS, a manufacturer, and the internet (deals).

Question: Wasn't AL Jacque Custeau's company? And if so isn't he supposed to "noble"?

 

[MikeFerrara]

You don't need local camera shops to teach you how to take pictures, the photo market is massive compared to scuba, and local camera stores have been destroyed over the last decade.

Scuba is slightly different but it can be done so the consumer AND the LDS wins.

I didn't read the thread that was eliminated and I haven't read all of this one. However as a former dive shop owner here's what I think.

Divers would be better off if the people who sold them their equipment were NOT the people they relyed on for training because the training sucks and is given away, along with it's integrity in order to sell equipment.

In the dive shop owner defence, the agencies and the manufacturers work to keep them in a place where the their labor in teaching is what sells the equipment. So...a dive shop owner, teaches, fills tanks, baby sits, wipes noses and lies to their customers (only sometimes they actually believe what they say) and after those hundreds of hours of work and risk, they sell a bc which so many accuse them of over pricing. I don't know who is taken advantage more. The consumer gets ripped off even if they buy on the net cheap because they still can't dive worth dog doodoo....they got an almost free class that was worth every cent they paid and the dive shop owner spent a thousand dollars in labor or sweat to make $100 on a bc while if he had just went to work he would have gotten the whole $1000 and the manufacturer don't even give him a kiss.

The whole thing is like amway or something.

Now. You all can do what you want and money certainly isn't what's most important to me or even very high on the list. If it was I'd have to work toward seeing an end to some of these schlock outfits. But...I know what's in the dealer agreements. I know what crap the manufacturers reps (what do they really do for a living anyway?) pull and I know what kind of garbage the agencies are peddling. I'd also carve a regulator out of wood before I'd purchased anything from aqualung or scubapro. Oh, and I know very well and first hand how they do business.

It's no accident that the co-founder of the largest recreational agency was also VP of one of the largest manufacturers for all those years and things turned out this way. Only the agencies, manufacturers and a few internet dealers win. The divers and most of the dive shops get bent over a table and not even offered a jar of vasaline and they certainly aren't given a kiss.