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[ScubaInChicago]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the UTD Z manifold system.

UTD Z-Isolatable Manifold · UTD Scuba Diving

 

[johnnywulff]

that is completely against what you said in the post that I was responding to where you said it had adequate lift. The wing is adjusted properly, I can promise you that, it is a function of that design which is very bad for that amount of lift. It is one thing if you are diving it with al80's where you don't need that much lift, it is completely inappropriate to dive it with steel tanks in an unbalanced rig *i.e. florida cave diving where we are diving with lots of gas, and not a lot of exposure protection*. We have this discussion at least once every 6 months with people that have drank the Razor Kool-Aid usually from the guys that say they dive it in cold water in Europe with big tanks and it's fine, but they are also diving with thick undergarments under drysuits where most of the lift requirements are in the suit, not the wing, and that isn't a valid argument. It is quite simply not the right tool for the job. MANY Florida cave divers I know have Razors and we use them for AL80 only diving, what it was designed to do, but it doesn't do Florida style diving well

I agree, there aren't a sidemount rig, that is perfect for all types of environment that's why have to modified, at the end what works for you don't have to do for me, by the way I dive most in Al80 max 4 cylinders and pony for deco

 

[The Laconic]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the UTD Z manifold system.

UTD Z-Isolatable Manifold · UTD Scuba Diving

"Not sure if serious."

 

[ScubaInChicago]

"Not sure if serious."

I suggest you watch this video:

 

[The Laconic]

I suggest you watch this video

Andrew's videos are really difficult for me to attend to. I absorb through reading much much better than through listening, and he has this frenetic Australian style that makes me nuts. He's probably a good dude, and nothing against him personally.

Anyway, I've never been diving sidemount and thought "I wish all this was connected together behind my back instead". I just don't get this at a very basic level.

 

[ScubaInChicago]

View attachment 381308

OR this one:

 

[DevonDiver]

... It is one thing if you are diving it with al80's where you don't need that much lift, it is completely inappropriate to dive it with steel tanks in an unbalanced rig *i.e. florida cave diving where we are diving with lots of gas, and not a lot of exposure protection*. We have this discussion at least once every 6 months with people that have drank the Razor Kool-Aid ...MANY Florida cave divers I know have Razors and we use them for AL80 only diving, what it was designed to do, but it doesn't do Florida style diving well

As you say, for that area, the issue is that large gas requirement plus minimal exposure protection creates a imbalanced rig.

That assumes high capacity (steel) cylinder being used to supply that large gas requirement.

Why make that assumption? Local tradition?

What you see 'Mexican' (style) divers doing is using more AL80.... 2x primary plus 2x stage... for their bottom gas requirements. In doing so they retain a balanced rig. There's plenty of photos floating around showing Razor, XDeep etc divers in thin wetsuits adequately diving 4-6 AL80s....

 

[ScubaInChicago]

Andrew's videos are really difficult for me to attend to. I absorb through reading much much better than through listening, and he has this frenetic Australian style that makes me nuts. He's probably a good dude, and nothing against him personally.

Anyway, I've never been diving sidemount and thought "I wish all this was connected together behind my back instead". I just don't get this at a very basic level.

That's too bad because Andrew COMPLETELY redesigned the Z manifold through constant innovation and refinement of their products. Maybe if you weren't blown away by the first wave of innovation the second time around will have you sold...AND THEN you will be thinking about having all that connected behind your back instead.

 

[tbone1004]

@DevonDiver absolutely correct, you can strap basically as many AL80's you want onto a rig and because they are barely negative when full, you just don't compensate for them in your weighting. Pros and cons to that, but as long as you are OK with ditching empty bottles when you get to a point that you are too light to stay down, that's a perfectly reasonable way to dive. Unfortunately for us that would mean taking 6xal80's instead of 2x 121's and 2x 80's, and that gets very clunky especially when trying to scooter. With the Faber 121's that my buddy and I are using it's actually much less bad than it was with my PST HP120's, but I have to be VERY careful in gas planning because if I drain the 121's down, I won't be able to stay down. Current planning is to not touch the 121's except in an emergency, so that helps, but I can hang out with them down to about 1000psi down from 3600 which is oodles of gas.

@toby43 there is nothing wrong with buying into a system and being passionate about it. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. The problem is when the idiot Razor divers come in here saying that the Razor is absolutely superior to everything out there for ALL diving conditions, and they couldn't be more wrong. Very few if any of them have ever dove in the conditions that you experience in NFL and assume that if the extremes work *warm water AL80 diving, and cold water drysuit steel diving*, then everything in the middle must work. The problem is that the two extremes are more similar than they sound because they are both a balanced rig and the Razor works fine for that, but notice you never see anyone who dives a 7mm farmer john in cold water with steel tanks advocate for it *it can't compensate for the suit compression*, and I don't think I've ever actually seen a Razor being used in Florida other than when I was testing a prototype wing. See a lot of xDeep's, but I can honestly say I've never seen anyone use a non-highly modified razor in Florida. I know many that own them, myself included, but it simply is not the best rig for that environment and the Razor Kool-Aid drinkers don't think so, and none of the really loud ones have ever dove those conditions to my knowledge, or they do it with 6x al80's and look like the Michelin Man in the water and can't move anywhere because of the drag profile

 

[toby43]

@DevonDiver absolutely correct, you can strap basically as many AL80's you want onto a rig and because they are barely negative when full, you just don't compensate for them in your weighting. Pros and cons to that, but as long as you are OK with ditching empty bottles when you get to a point that you are too light to stay down, that's a perfectly reasonable way to dive. Unfortunately for us that would mean taking 6xal80's instead of 2x 121's and 2x 80's, and that gets very clunky especially when trying to scooter. With the Faber 121's that my buddy and I are using it's actually much less bad than it was with my PST HP120's, but I have to be VERY careful in gas planning because if I drain the 121's down, I won't be able to stay down. Current planning is to not touch the 121's except in an emergency, so that helps, but I can hang out with them down to about 1000psi down from 3600 which is oodles of gas.

@toby43 there is nothing wrong with buying into a system and being passionate about it. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. The problem is when the idiot Razor divers come in here saying that the Razor is absolutely superior to everything out there for ALL diving conditions, and they couldn't be more wrong. Very few if any of them have ever dove in the conditions that you experience in NFL and assume that if the extremes work *warm water AL80 diving, and cold water drysuit steel diving*, then everything in the middle must work. The problem is that the two extremes are more similar than they sound because they are both a balanced rig and the Razor works fine for that, but notice you never see anyone who dives a 7mm farmer john in cold water with steel tanks advocate for it *it can't compensate for the suit compression*, and I don't think I've ever actually seen a Razor being used in Florida other than when I was testing a prototype wing. See a lot of xDeep's, but I can honestly say I've never seen anyone use a non-highly modified razor in Florida. I know many that own them, myself included, but it simply is not the best rig for that environment and the Razor Kool-Aid drinkers don't think so, and none of the really loud ones have ever dove those conditions to my knowledge, or they do it with 6x al80's and look like the Michelin Man in the water and can't move anywhere because of the drag profile

yup, well you're probably right