OP
Teaching nothing
- Thread starter wetb4igetinthewater
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
Ryan Neely
Contributor
This might be deviating from the original thread, but I think it's important to point out a particular bias among those of us here on ScubaBoard. First a clarification: Despite having my OW course taught on my knees or standing on a platform, I am a firm believer that OW courses should be taught neutrally buoyant and in trim. That's my personal opinion.
However, I recognize that those of us here are either here because we are or have been professionals in the industry at some point in our lives or are so taken with the sport that this is what we choose to spend our time doing . . . which includes working to improve skills.
I get the sense that a lot of recreational divers are just that. They dive for recreation. They take their OW either during or in advance of a tropical vacation and then may not get in the water again for at least a year (probably more). One cannot create the muscle memory required for anything we discuss on this site without constant practice.
My wife is a great example of this. She has her buoyancy and trim solid. If she went for a Fundies tec pass while we were on Bonaire in November, she would have passed easily. Talk to me in May after the lakes in our local mine pits have thawed and see if the answer is the same. I need to give her at least one dive, and sometimes two to get dialed back in.
And that's just buoyancy and trim. That doesn't take into account any other skill (mask removal, gas sharing, propulsion). I swear, we dive go on a two-tank dive once a week from May through August just to work through getting her comfortable performing these skills again so she is solid and ready to go on whatever dive vacation we have planned for November.
Consider, then, the diver who is certified on vacation in November, maybe goes on a another dive vacation the following November, and then not again for two or three years. There's no way this person will remember what it takes to be in trim or to be neutrally buoyant. They just aren't thinking about it. (Which is why organization like PADI recommend a refresher course for those who haven't dived in six months).
Now, as an organization teaching predominantly recreational scuba divers like the ones described above, it doesn't make a lot of sense to enforce learning neutrally buoyant and in trim for these people.
To be fair, I don't work for a dive shop, so I couldn't give statistics about how many divers they have certified who only get certified for a vacation or two, but I can express (from my personal experience) diving is not like riding a bike. Even riding a bike isn't like riding a bike. You can and do forget.
I guess, to play devil's advocate, I can understand why an instructor might not want to spend the time to teach other skills (skills divers may struggle with more, like mask clearing, donning and doffing in water, or out-of-gas drills) while kneeling or standing on a solid surface, especially if a high percentage of those students aren't going to continue with diving as a recreational hobby like those of us on this forum have.
That inherent bias is important to recognize. We are different because we care, we want to be better, and we dive often.
One other note: I write books. Right now it's supernatural suspense for young adults. Mild horror, that kind of thing. In early days when I was struggling to feel like I was writing at a high enough quality, I worked with a mentor who helped me to identify my weakness and to shore up areas that needed help.
Once, when I came to her with a passage that I felt was lacking, she asked why I was still working on this particular book. She thought I had finished it months before. I explained that I didn't think it was good enough, yet.
Her response was to tell me that it didn't matter if it was good enough. Nobody would notice. This repulsed me in a big way. (I swear there's a corollary here.) She went on to explain that there were millions of readers out there who wouldn't care if there was this typo or if that plot hole didn't get filled.
What she was trying to do was to get me to stop worrying about potential mistakes and to take the next step in the publication process. I see that now, but the path she was taking was to suggest that putting out low-quality work wasn't an issue because the audience I was bound to have at such an early stage wouldn't notice anyway. She called them low compliance readers. The readers who subscribe to Kindle Unlimited and consume books in the hundreds per year.
Her point was that some people, people like these low-compliance readers, can't tell the difference between a well-written book and a poorly-written book. To them it was all the same. Their brains were wired differently enough that it was impossible for them to distinguish the quality levels between a book written by Blake Crouch or one of A.G. Riddle's early novels (A.G. Riddle had gotten better since his first novel).
When she explained this to me, I started seeing it everywhere. This was the reason that some people couldn't tell the difference between a senior portrait taken by a professional with decades of experience and training and one taken by their aunt who happens to have a "fancy" camera.
This might also be the reason we see some kickback to the notion of training while neutrally buoyant. Some people simply cannot distinguish between the quality level of a diver by having that training (or not).
However, I recognize that those of us here are either here because we are or have been professionals in the industry at some point in our lives or are so taken with the sport that this is what we choose to spend our time doing . . . which includes working to improve skills.
I get the sense that a lot of recreational divers are just that. They dive for recreation. They take their OW either during or in advance of a tropical vacation and then may not get in the water again for at least a year (probably more). One cannot create the muscle memory required for anything we discuss on this site without constant practice.
My wife is a great example of this. She has her buoyancy and trim solid. If she went for a Fundies tec pass while we were on Bonaire in November, she would have passed easily. Talk to me in May after the lakes in our local mine pits have thawed and see if the answer is the same. I need to give her at least one dive, and sometimes two to get dialed back in.
And that's just buoyancy and trim. That doesn't take into account any other skill (mask removal, gas sharing, propulsion). I swear, we dive go on a two-tank dive once a week from May through August just to work through getting her comfortable performing these skills again so she is solid and ready to go on whatever dive vacation we have planned for November.
Consider, then, the diver who is certified on vacation in November, maybe goes on a another dive vacation the following November, and then not again for two or three years. There's no way this person will remember what it takes to be in trim or to be neutrally buoyant. They just aren't thinking about it. (Which is why organization like PADI recommend a refresher course for those who haven't dived in six months).
Now, as an organization teaching predominantly recreational scuba divers like the ones described above, it doesn't make a lot of sense to enforce learning neutrally buoyant and in trim for these people.
To be fair, I don't work for a dive shop, so I couldn't give statistics about how many divers they have certified who only get certified for a vacation or two, but I can express (from my personal experience) diving is not like riding a bike. Even riding a bike isn't like riding a bike. You can and do forget.
I guess, to play devil's advocate, I can understand why an instructor might not want to spend the time to teach other skills (skills divers may struggle with more, like mask clearing, donning and doffing in water, or out-of-gas drills) while kneeling or standing on a solid surface, especially if a high percentage of those students aren't going to continue with diving as a recreational hobby like those of us on this forum have.
That inherent bias is important to recognize. We are different because we care, we want to be better, and we dive often.
One other note: I write books. Right now it's supernatural suspense for young adults. Mild horror, that kind of thing. In early days when I was struggling to feel like I was writing at a high enough quality, I worked with a mentor who helped me to identify my weakness and to shore up areas that needed help.
Once, when I came to her with a passage that I felt was lacking, she asked why I was still working on this particular book. She thought I had finished it months before. I explained that I didn't think it was good enough, yet.
Her response was to tell me that it didn't matter if it was good enough. Nobody would notice. This repulsed me in a big way. (I swear there's a corollary here.) She went on to explain that there were millions of readers out there who wouldn't care if there was this typo or if that plot hole didn't get filled.
What she was trying to do was to get me to stop worrying about potential mistakes and to take the next step in the publication process. I see that now, but the path she was taking was to suggest that putting out low-quality work wasn't an issue because the audience I was bound to have at such an early stage wouldn't notice anyway. She called them low compliance readers. The readers who subscribe to Kindle Unlimited and consume books in the hundreds per year.
Her point was that some people, people like these low-compliance readers, can't tell the difference between a well-written book and a poorly-written book. To them it was all the same. Their brains were wired differently enough that it was impossible for them to distinguish the quality levels between a book written by Blake Crouch or one of A.G. Riddle's early novels (A.G. Riddle had gotten better since his first novel).
When she explained this to me, I started seeing it everywhere. This was the reason that some people couldn't tell the difference between a senior portrait taken by a professional with decades of experience and training and one taken by their aunt who happens to have a "fancy" camera.
This might also be the reason we see some kickback to the notion of training while neutrally buoyant. Some people simply cannot distinguish between the quality level of a diver by having that training (or not).
- Messages
- 16,407
- Reaction score
- 5,219
- # of dives
- 1000 - 2499
Well yeah, but from what I read many of those tropical divers don't dive much other than a trip or two a year. It is understandable that their buoyancy may suck. If one dives regularly (weekly, bi-weekly, etc.) it shouldn't take long at all to dial in buoyancy.
OP
Well, I was pretty much overweighted and had poor trim until I took fundies at around 380 dives. I had great buoyancy control, but it was harder than what it should be.
The point is laying a proper foundation and to accelerate skills acquisition.
I don't understand why anyone would be against that.
@Ryan Neely
I will get back to you later and explain why I strongly disagree.
MichaelMc
Working toward Cenotes
When training toward DM, I learned that what students see or do first is what they will remember.
Most people diving only occasional is even more reason to train them neutral and in trim. Particularly if
their dives are on vacation under only the most minimal of further mentoring. In those conditions, they're unlikely to make a leap to it on their own, and when tired or rusty are likely to revert to how they were "trained". Though many were never trained on it. It was just skipped.
If training neutral and in trim look longer it might be a more complex conversation, but there are many reports from those that do it that it takes less time for their students to learn. Which makes the debate more about instructor retraining.
I agree most here are not everyday divers. We have a bias for good diving.
Many here are trained in teaching outside of diving. Their notions of how to do things right by their dive students are worth consideration.
- Messages
- 16,407
- Reaction score
- 5,219
- # of dives
- 1000 - 2499
You didn't do a weight check until 380 dives? I'm assuming you didn't know you were overweighted.
OP
I didn't know how to do a proper weight check. The method taught to me by my CD actually led to me being 5 lbs overweight. The float test at the surface wasn't appropriate for my very buoyant neoprene dry suit. I did it via trial and error, but fundies gave me the methodical approach and finally addressed weight distribution.
What can I tell you? My PADI training sucked, including my pro training. I'm trying to save people the problems I had.
Similar threads
