Suunto Eon Steel Skipped Safety Stop

[DevonDiver]

From another perspective... It's an extremely GOOD choice for an instructor who's doing intensive multi-day, repetitive schedules... often incurring several fast ascends and relatively saw-toothed profiles..

Instructors get bent too.... and there's plenty living in a perpetual state of mind / silent DCS.

From the way many rec instructors work, especially n busy tourist destinations, a tendency for hyper-conservatism is a more prudent strategy.

Mark my words, science has a lot to discover about the long-term effects of subclinical DCS... and most likely a price to be paid later in life for overzealous diving / instructing...

For what it's worth, I used a Vyper for over a decade... teaching 6-7 days a week, 4-5 dives a day in Thailand. I never put the machine into deco.

If you know what the machine spanks you for doing, don't do those things. Be healthy instead... and dive longer.

 

[Ozensha]

Just saying...

Maybe you should offer some real advice to people who are just asking for help from other divers with more experience than them and you wouldn't look like such an snob. Just saying...

Also, I did read the manual and my question was based on genuine confusion about the paragraph detailing the lockout for no-deco dives. I really appreciate the people who offered real advice and expressed their concerns in a constructive way. It is really disappointing to know that some individuals on this forum would rather scare new instructors away from asking genuine questions due to fear of reprisal from others.

---------- Post added January 11th, 2016 at 02:36 PM ----------

From another perspective... It's an extremely GOOD choice for an instructor who's doing intensive multi-day, repetitive schedules... often incurring several fast ascends and relatively saw-toothed profiles..

Instructors get bent too.... and there's plenty living in a perpetual state of mind / silent DCS.

From the way many rec instructors work, especially n busy tourist destinations, a tendency for hyper-conservatism is a more prudent strategy.

Mark my words, science has a lot to discover about the long-term effects of subclinical DCS... and most likely a price to be paid later in life for overzealous diving / instructing...

For what it's worth, I used a Vyper for over a decade... teaching 6-7 days a week, 4-5 dives a day in Thailand. I never put the machine into deco.

If you know what the machine spanks you for doing, don't do those things. Be healthy instead... and dive longer.

Thank you for all of the advice. I have looked into the long term effects of DCS and see what you are talking about. My question was only about the function of the computer but I really appreciate you taking the time to explain your perspective on conservative diving. I know that the Suunto RGBM is more conservative than the PADI tables but is newer as well. I will give a lot more credence to what my computer is telling me in the future.

---------- Post added January 11th, 2016 at 02:47 PM ----------

In summary for anyone who is wondering:

My computer was giving me a mandatory safety stop for exceeding the 10m/33ft per minute ascent rate. I was ascending according to the PADI guidelines at under 60ft per minute rate. In doing this the Suunto algorithm gave me a mandatory 3 minute safety stop at 10ft. Had I continued to ignore this error I would have been penalized on my next dive but would not have received the 48hr lockout. Based on re-reading the manual and comments posted from other users; the lockout only occurs when you skip a deco stop on a decompression dive. Safety stops are not mandatory on the Suunto computers unless you exceed their ascent rate of 33ft per minute for longer than 5 seconds.

Thanks to everyone who helped to answer my question and offered meaningful advice. Now that I know the Suunto ascent rate is under 33ft per minute I am going to stick to that and should not see this warning anymore.

 

[DevonDiver]

Bear in mind that the PADI tables and ascent rates (18m/60ft per min) are very historical...and a great deal of research has been done since their inception. PADI are the only agency that still use 18m/60ft.... and, even then, are subtly trying to make tables a thing of the past. All the current advice by PADI is, if using a computer, then limit your ascent to the max rate used by that computer. I will prod you to consider the potential liability (think... class actions) if PADI admitted that their advised ascent rates were double what is (now considered) optimum.

Regards to ascent speeds, here is an article I wrote: Best Ascent Speed for Scuba Diving

We have to remember that in recreational diving, especially at the entry-level, the processes and procedures are kept brutally simple. Simplicity is wise, given trainee/novice diver capability. That does not, however, mean that the simplest option is the best option. There are a lot of refinements that can be added to ascent and safety stop protocols that have a knownimpact on reducing bubble scores and reducing nitrogen saturation before surfacing.

For the occasional recreational diver, those optimizations would generally be unnoticeable (unless they have a PFO or otherwise suffered from multiple DCS pre-disposing factors). But for a full-time recreational diving instructor - whose daily routine is to conduct multiple repetitive dives, often with relatively saw-toothed profiles and/or multiple ascents... applying a more optimal set of procedures is a safeguard against very real health and safety concerns.

 

[Reku]

Man having a computer that yelled at me and locked me out would just be so annoying. I have no idea how you guys deal with it. Gauge mode seems like the best choice here.

 

[Nasser]

It's also worth noting that on previous models such the Vyper - If you dive in Gauge mode the unit will not let you switch back to the other modes before the no-flytime has counted down. I don't know if this is also the case with the EON so it's worth reading up to check.

 

[doctormike]

Man having a computer that yelled at me and locked me out would just be so annoying. I have no idea how you guys deal with it. Gauge mode seems like the best choice here.

Why gague mode? If you are going to ignore the computer's advice, why bring it at all?

If you think that it's annoying to be told that multiple ascents can hurt you, maybe you just haven't rolled the dice and gotten snake eyes yet. I needed a chamber ride for a spinal cord hit in exactly that situation, multiple ascents, nowhere near NDL.


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[DuboisP]

It is really disappointing to know that some individuals on this forum would rather scare new instructors away from asking genuine questions due to fear of reprisal from others.

before being an instructor, you must do a good diver.
and a good diver knows how his computer works.

thats' really a pity an instructor is unable to answer his students.

don't forget, never.

you're teaching, you're God, and God knows.

in the CMAS system, even the 1st level instructor, the lowest, knows decompression.

 

[doctormike]

Maybe you should offer some real advice to people who are just asking for help from other divers with more experience than them and you wouldn't look like such an snob. Just saying... It is really disappointing to know that some individuals on this forum would rather scare new instructors away from asking genuine questions due to fear of reprisal from others.

He did offer you real advice, maybe not what you wanted to hear. I don't think that Andy came off as a snob at all. You asked:

"I got a warning on my screen stating that I skipped my safety stop and ascended too fast. The computer was telling me to go back to 10 feet to continue the stop. By chance I had one more student that required me to go back to 20ft+ to perform the last CESA and upon ascending the warning went away.


My question is; if I were to continue to ignore the safety stop error on a no deco dive, would the Eon Steel lock me out for the 48 hour window? I would be pretty upset if this were true. I mean at that price point, why would Suunto make the computer unusable to instructors. I mean there is no way an instructor is not going to skip a stop or not come up too fast due to a bad student."

You seem to be justifying an unsafe diving practice because of your role as an instructor. That is, because you have worked out a good reason why you are doing something unsafe, you resent the fact that your computer is telling you that it is unsafe and won't let you do it.

And since this is an open forum, and a lot of new divers are reading this, I think that Andy was right to push back on your position. Because otherwise, people will say "wow, that computer sucks, it won't let me dive like my instructor dives".

You are going to do what you are going to do, instructor or not. So go ahead and roll those dice. But if you take the position that "I paid a lot for this computer, it should let me do whatever I like", then I don't think that you are doing yourself a favor.

 

[stuartv]

My computer was giving me a mandatory safety stop for exceeding the 10m/33ft per minute ascent rate. I was ascending according to the PADI guidelines at under 60ft per minute rate. In doing this the Suunto algorithm gave me a mandatory 3 minute safety stop at 10ft. Had I continued to ignore this error I would have been penalized on my next dive but would not have received the 48hr lockout. Based on re-reading the manual and comments posted from other users; the lockout only occurs when you skip a deco stop on a decompression dive. Safety stops are not mandatory on the Suunto computers unless you exceed their ascent rate of 33ft per minute for longer than 5 seconds.

Thanks to everyone who helped to answer my question and offered meaningful advice. Now that I know the Suunto ascent rate is under 33ft per minute I am going to stick to that and should not see this warning anymore.

What's the penalty on your next dive? A shorter NDL, right? How many times do you do that before the NDL drops to zero, you enter deco (according to the computer), you ignore that stop, and then the computer locks you out?

In other words, it seems to me that it may not lock you out the first time you do it. But, if you do it enough times in a day, you would run a real risk of getting locked out.


I'm no instructor and really, a fairly new diver actually. But, it seems to me that if you have to make too rapid ascents to keep up with students you might need to re-think the way you are instructing. You might as well have said you are teaching people to drive a car and you're having trouble because the bolts holding your seat belt to the car frame are getting stretched out from all the minor crashes your students are having during class.

And, no matter what PADI says, you will do yourself and your students a BIG favor (in my opinion) if you stick to 30 feet/min or slower ascents and teach your students to do the same. If you teach them 60 ft/min and then they blow it by a little, they are REALLY screaming upwards. If they are aiming for LESS than 30 ft/min and they blow it by a little, the consequences aren't likely to be nearly as bad.

 

[Sevenrider860]

...it seems to me that if you have to make too rapid ascents to keep up with students you might need to re-think the way you are instructing.

Do you think he is just swimming around chasing students making rapid ascents? Or perhaps he is accompanying his students on the mandatory Open Water CESA skill...like he indicated in his original post?




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