docmartin
Contributor
in warm water i only use a steel bp and don't experience any pushover. in cold water i use additional tank weights and never go face down either.
Surface flotation for DIR harness idea
- Thread starter SparkySFD
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OP
SparkySFD
Guest
SCORE ResQ
I wear my weight on a belt. I also keep weight in the trim pockets of my BC. I would like to switch to a BP/wing if I can figure a way to ensure surface flotation.
If it was just me Im confident it would be a great setup and plan on buying one for personal use. But would be nice to work in as well. My situation and needs are a little unique.
I did think about a horse collar. But thats a lot of crap around the shoulder straps. Would worry about getting to the wing inflator. Guess it could be bungeed over the collar. Would really like to find something or make one that fit just over the belly area.
Why dont you take a page from the old school. Use your backplate with a horse collar BC for search and rescue work, and still keep your wings in the truck for search and recovery. Two separate missions requiring two separate rigs.
I believe the horse collars are still made by Scuba Pro for military and Public Safety Organizations as well as the general public. They have the back up CO2 and oral inflation in addition to the LP hook up. They can be used independently and serve double duty as a life jacket if you end up on support stand-by or as an in water tender. Another advantage to a horse collar BC is they allow the use of a lifting harnesses for use with helecopter operations as well. Very multi functional and definatly worth looking into.
Of course this is just my humble opinion based on the DIR concept of Function and Simplicity while allowing for Multi mission adaptation and is in no way a professional answer to your question.
I believe the horse collars are still made by Scuba Pro for military and Public Safety Organizations as well as the general public. They have the back up CO2 and oral inflation in addition to the LP hook up. They can be used independently and serve double duty as a life jacket if you end up on support stand-by or as an in water tender. Another advantage to a horse collar BC is they allow the use of a lifting harnesses for use with helecopter operations as well. Very multi functional and definatly worth looking into.
Of course this is just my humble opinion based on the DIR concept of Function and Simplicity while allowing for Multi mission adaptation and is in no way a professional answer to your question.
OP
SparkySFD
Guest
ScubaToneDog
Thought about it already. The reason I dont is I think relying on the horse collar for buoyancy control would be like riding a bubble. I believe thats why the old guys quit using them.
You are right they still make them. The military does buy them. Im ex-Navy myself (Submariner, best-of-the-best you know). The military considers them to be "Life Preservers". Thats the catagory they fall in on the Navy ANU list. They do not believe even a jacket style BC to float you face up on the surface.
I may give in on my idea. May just go with a military style HC over my BP/wing setup. Will have an excellent underwater platform and on the surface I can inflate the HC for rock solid surface flotation.
Thought about it already. The reason I dont is I think relying on the horse collar for buoyancy control would be like riding a bubble. I believe thats why the old guys quit using them.
You are right they still make them. The military does buy them. Im ex-Navy myself (Submariner, best-of-the-best you know). The military considers them to be "Life Preservers". Thats the catagory they fall in on the Navy ANU list. They do not believe even a jacket style BC to float you face up on the surface.
I may give in on my idea. May just go with a military style HC over my BP/wing setup. Will have an excellent underwater platform and on the surface I can inflate the HC for rock solid surface flotation.
I dont think they gave them up for that reason. It was more for the simplicity of only having to don 1 piece of gear.
Ive talked to a couple of people who dive them and they swear by them. One of them is a big Bug hunter. He likes it because he can change out his tank by simply having another tank pack and reg set ready to go.
It all comes down to pratical in water useage to evaluate the best possible configuration, in your case especially for rescue work.
Like I said...just an opinion...theres a million of them out there. Take them all throw em up on the wall and see what sticks.
When you do get a solution together please post your findings. Im very intrigued with this.
Ive talked to a couple of people who dive them and they swear by them. One of them is a big Bug hunter. He likes it because he can change out his tank by simply having another tank pack and reg set ready to go.
It all comes down to pratical in water useage to evaluate the best possible configuration, in your case especially for rescue work.
Like I said...just an opinion...theres a million of them out there. Take them all throw em up on the wall and see what sticks.
When you do get a solution together please post your findings. Im very intrigued with this.
OP
SparkySFD
Guest
Sure I'll post what happens. Although I would think it would be a long process. Dive-evaluate-Dive-evaluate. I have started to talk with a few PSD instructors about it. I'm taking a really great course next year. Hopefully in the spring. Will talk to them about it then.
Out of curiosity, everyone who posted on this thread that said their BP/wing setups didn't push them forward (unless fully inflated), is this because you are conscious and in addition to proper weight placement, you are easily able to maintain an upright position? So, what if you relaxed completely, like an unconscious person? Where would your BP/wing place you? I ask, because when I recently taught a rescue class (I wear a vest style BCD when teaching, but prefer the BP/wing setup for recreational diving), some of my students had BP/wing setups and they kept rolling face down during rescue scenarios and so there was much struggling to right them just to get their units off. Any suggestions/tips on how to handle this that I can share with future classes?
buff
Contributor
I think it has more to do with with the mechanics of the BP/wing setup.
Again, I have the Dive Rite rec wing, Fred T. heavy BP and heavy STA.
I think the heavy STA and backplate off set the forward push of the wing-if the wing has any. I also feel that the rec wing design is superior for surface flotation-perhaps its not as thick as the other wings and is longer relative to its thickness. It's the only reason I can account for it's trim characteristics. I am perfectly vertical in the water-no forward push. Even at peak wing inflation, my chin is about a foot out of the water and there is no face down push.
I really didn't have to do anything to stay in perfect position-at the surface(vertical) or U/W(horizontal)-the first time I used this wing. There was no "learning curve". I just went scuba diving.
Again, I have the Dive Rite rec wing, Fred T. heavy BP and heavy STA.
I think the heavy STA and backplate off set the forward push of the wing-if the wing has any. I also feel that the rec wing design is superior for surface flotation-perhaps its not as thick as the other wings and is longer relative to its thickness. It's the only reason I can account for it's trim characteristics. I am perfectly vertical in the water-no forward push. Even at peak wing inflation, my chin is about a foot out of the water and there is no face down push.
I really didn't have to do anything to stay in perfect position-at the surface(vertical) or U/W(horizontal)-the first time I used this wing. There was no "learning curve". I just went scuba diving.
Yes, a couple of things.
1) Make sure they ditch the weight.
2) Teach them that they don't have to fully inflate the BC.
If the weight belt is ditched you don't have to worry about an overweighted diver.
If they have non-ditchable weight in the form of a p or v weight, they will actually help to keep the diver face up.
Also, for many rescue students, they tend to add air until the BC is full. This is really not necessary, and can make getting rescue breaths into them more difficult (either floating them to high, or restricting the airway). Try to emphasize that they want to get the victim to the surface safely, ditch any weight and inflate the BC to get them positive on the surface.
Once they have gotten the rescue breathing started, they are going to want to start removing equipment to get them out of the water. This is another point where an overinflated BC can be a pain.
1) Make sure they ditch the weight.
2) Teach them that they don't have to fully inflate the BC.
If the weight belt is ditched you don't have to worry about an overweighted diver.
If they have non-ditchable weight in the form of a p or v weight, they will actually help to keep the diver face up.
Also, for many rescue students, they tend to add air until the BC is full. This is really not necessary, and can make getting rescue breaths into them more difficult (either floating them to high, or restricting the airway). Try to emphasize that they want to get the victim to the surface safely, ditch any weight and inflate the BC to get them positive on the surface.
Once they have gotten the rescue breathing started, they are going to want to start removing equipment to get them out of the water. This is another point where an overinflated BC can be a pain.
If you are perfectly weighted to be verticle on the surface try this. Totally relax and just drop your head forward.
Do you remain verticle? Does your face even make it into the water? I betcha it did.
If you use back inflation no matter how you are weighted if you go unconsious you will end up face down unless someone turns you over. Standard BC Jackets preform the same way....face down. The bouyancy cells, unless positioned on the upper front of the chest, will not keep a persons face out of the water in an unconsious state. You cant argue with physics.
The Topic at hand deals with rescue work. I dont mean to discredit anyone here but we're talking real rescue work. Not any of the Rescue Diver Courses from the various agencies. Thats like comparing a First Aid and CPR course to EMT training...BIG-BIG DIFFERENCE.
Do you remain verticle? Does your face even make it into the water? I betcha it did.
If you use back inflation no matter how you are weighted if you go unconsious you will end up face down unless someone turns you over. Standard BC Jackets preform the same way....face down. The bouyancy cells, unless positioned on the upper front of the chest, will not keep a persons face out of the water in an unconsious state. You cant argue with physics.
The Topic at hand deals with rescue work. I dont mean to discredit anyone here but we're talking real rescue work. Not any of the Rescue Diver Courses from the various agencies. Thats like comparing a First Aid and CPR course to EMT training...BIG-BIG DIFFERENCE.
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