Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[cerich]

This is an assumption that Snow knew the standards. You are making gross assumptions about Mills training and what she was taught.

While each individual is always responsible for themselves, there is frequently a dismissal by instructors/dive centers of standards ("you don't need to know that"). Customers see instructors as the expert. That doesn't absolve customers of responsibility, but the reality is that it does impact dive safety.

I'm pretty sure I know how you are going to react this comment.

OK, seriously, she was an instructor and it was her responsibility to know and follow the standards. Gull also as her employer. To your point regards student, I tend to somewhat agree. There is a LOT of information in e-learning, how well it is tested is a whole other discussion is it not? Then the instructor saying "do this" or "this is fine" to a student can over ride what they learned in materials. Human nature and all

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

OK, seriously, she was an instructor and it was her responsibility to know and follow the standards. Gull also as her employer. To your point regards student, I tend to somewhat agree. There is a LOT of information in e-learning, how well it is tested is a whole other discussion is it not? Then the instructor saying "do this" or "this is fine" to a student can over ride what they learned in materials. Human nature and all

Yes agreed on that. She did her training in Rainbow Reef in Florida and then returned to Montana. Now this is a single incident, but it shows she had no idea as to run a class in the mountains of Montana (3000 feet) in winter. I would be more than willing to bet she wasn't trained to teach in those conditions. There's of course a lot of common sense thrown out the window. The owners of the dive center baffle me as well.

 

[Omisson]

This is an assumption that Snow knew the standards. You are making gross assumptions about Mills training and what she was taught.

While each individual is always responsible for themselves, there is frequently a dismissal by instructors/dive centers of standards ("you don't need to know that"). Customers see instructors as the expert. That doesn't absolve customers of responsibility, but the reality is that it does impact dive safety.

I'm pretty sure I know how you are going to react this comment.

So you are saying snow didn’t have access to the standards? BS. You know very well she did AND was simply ignoring the standards- she was violating standards either way- and that is something taught to her both in her IDC and during her exams in multiple question at the IE.

Are you also saying Mills DIDNT bother to read and digest the AOW elearning materials she had been assigned and took the online quizzes to pass by blind chance?

So what evidence do you have of either of these laughably absurd statements?

really sad when you are constructing straw arguments in the face of evidence…

but I do agree that divers-especially new ones will rely on instructors - but its a weighted argument. If I tell a student to do something that over and over the lessons said is unsafe - would that student still do it unquestioningly? I would hope not…

I already supplied all the places in the AOW materials where weighting, using Drysuit inflator hoses, depth, task loading, etc are discussed- Mills had to have ignored ALL that to get to accepting the instructor putting 40# of non-ditchable weight on a 90# girl in an non-working Drysuit - over a120’ bed of icy water at twighlight… on her 6th lifetime dive….

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

So you are saying snow didn’t have access to the standards? BS.

Please post where I said she didn't have access, thank you.

Are you also saying Mills DIDNT bother to read and digest the AOW elearning materials she had been assignedshe had and took the online quizzes to pass by blind chance?

I cannot say. My first try at AOW, I would study the materials, and then the instructor decided on a different dive that I had not prepared for. So I really have no idea.

 

[Omisson]

You seem to think this is about winning. There is no winning for anyone here. This is more of a discussion in my view. The winning is what takes place in the courtroom.

You can say the deaths from dive training are insignificant. I wouldn't say that to the friends and family of the deceased. However, that doesn't mean that changes to the system cannot be made to make the number of deaths even more "insignificant."

And if you think this is my Quixotic quest against PADI, you are wrong. Some PADI folks come to that conclusion when their identity is so close to their agency, something I will never understand. For me, it is about the industry reforming, taking any situation into how can we improve? As we can improve.

I will go back and look at DAN reports to see if they cover the deaths for which I'm aware. It is my understanding (I am not claiming this as fact) but DAN tosses out incidents that they don't have all the information. DAN is not an authority to overrule privacy laws, so my guess is that negligence training deaths would be underrepresented.

It’s not about “winning” tha argument- it’s about arguing honestly- which you have repeatedly not done. You inject facts that aren’t true, agree to an analogy and state “if I’m wrong then you are right” - then when you are proven wrong…move the goalpost.

that’s not discussion. That’s agenda.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

that’s not discussion. That’s agenda.

No, that is giving things more thought.

My agenda again is improving the system for all. It seems that is resented. I have brought up facts that you will not accept. I can't help that. I know not to convince flat earthers that the world is round. Fortunately, I don't need to. And ultimately, we will see how this court case pans out. I have hopes that it will go a certain way, but I would not be surprised if it doesn't.

 

[Omisson]

Please post where I said she didn't have access, thank you.

you said:

This is an assumption that Snow knew the standards.

so how would it be- after going to two IEs and anIDC- GETTING the entire PADI IDC CREW PACK, the physical instructor manual… being tested on how to determine training dive parameters at the IE exam portion… she didn’t “know the standard”? And even if somehow she “didn’t”- she at least knew that NOT knowing them was a standards violation itself…


what you are making is a patently absurd claim.

You are making gross assumptions about Mills training and what she was taught.

no- I’m making the rational assumption a student with a college education pursuing a marine biology degree would actually read, review, and absorb the materials she was tested on in the AOW elearning program she completed BEFORE the dives… and retained some semblance of a recall of the dives she did previously and the training she had the year before.

again it’s YOU making the absurd and unsupportable claims.

While each individual is always responsible for themselves, there is frequently a dismissal by instructors/dive centers of standards ("you don't need to know that"). Customers see instructors as the expert. That doesn't absolve customers of responsibility, but the reality is that it does impact dive safety.

I cannot say. My first try at AOW, I would study the materials, and then the instructor decided on a different dive that I had not prepared for. So I really have no idea.

except she completed the elearning before the dives- so she had all the materials… ahead of time…

 

[cerich]

Just throwing something out there, because...well

General Aviation Revitalization Act - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Omisson]

No, that is giving things more thought.

no that’s typical trolling.

My agenda again is improving the system for all. It seems that is resented. I have brought up facts that you will not accept. I can't help that. I know not to convince flat earthers that the world is round. Fortunately, I don't need to. And ultimately, we will see how this court case pans out. I have hopes that it will go a certain way, but I would not be surprised if it doesn't.

What “facts” have you given that I didn’t accept? Another strawman argument. You keep making things up to bolster your case. It is you who won’t accept facts. I’ve given YOU facts and pointed out your inconsistency in argument. You even back peddled the standards issue with snow in one post with Cerich, while doubling down on it in a post to me. It’s comical how transparently disingenuous your arguments are.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

You even back peddled the standards issue with snow in one post with Cerich, while doubling down on it in a post to me. It’s comical how transparently disingenuous your arguments are.

It is comical how you projecting your agenda. I'm done. Time to get out of the mud.