Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[formernuke]

I will partly agree. Drysuit wise that's shaky. I've run into very experienced divers who know nothing about them.

Weighting is definitely a issue especially none being ditchable. But at the same time not knowing Drysuit I can see her believing if told she needed that much. A weight check should have been done, that is on both.

We don't know if she had night dive experience or not. I didn't see anything saying that this an ice dive in the sense of solid ice preventing an assent.

Even without those definitely combination of too much new stuff and she should have questioned it.

As for agency I also really don't see it based on facts so far, but perhaps some evidence could be presented showing some. The arguments I can think of really are weak and I'm sure the jury will not be able to issue a judgment against padi.

 

[Omisson]

I will partly agree. Drysuit wise that's shaky. I've run into very experienced divers who know nothing about them.

Weighting is definitely a issue especially none being ditchable. But at the same time not knowing Drysuit I can see her believing if told she needed that much. A weight check should have been done, that is on both.

We don't know if she had night dive experience or not. I didn't see anything saying that this an ice dive in the sense of solid ice preventing an assent.

Even without those definitely combination of too much new stuff and she should have questioned it.

As for agency I also really don't see it based on facts so far, but perhaps some evidence could be presented showing some. The arguments I can think of really are weak and I'm sure the jury will not be able to issue a judgment against padi.

You think she exercised “good judgment“ in diving a Drysuit that didn’t work (no inflator hose)? In non-ditchable weight?

 

[formernuke]

You think she exercised “good judgment“ in diving a Drysuit that didn’t work (no inflator hose)? In non-ditchable weight?

No, I think she did bad judgment with non ditchable weight, and didn't know enough about drysuit to know what was wrong, ie relied on the instructor to much on that one.

If all you ever dove was thin wetsuit and maybe saw surfers in there versions of drysuit would you know the importance of that hose or just think it's just like a wetsuit or just warmer.

 

[Esprise Me]

I’ve only posted this 4 times- perhaps you should read a thread before asking the same question for the fifth time?

Really? I've been reading the thread as it's happening, and I don't recall seeing you make this claim before. Are you sure it was this thread? Can you quote one of these four posts of yours?

”…. you don’t “just trust” your instructor when it comes to:

1-proper weight- you learned that in OW pool #1 and reiterated it in OW Dive #1. 40#, really? Any 90# diver thinking adding 45% of their weight in lead when norms are 10% is a HUGE red flag. Moreover- she loaded that as NON-DITCHABLE WEIGHT- how did she expect an emergency ascent with weight that wasn’t removable? What was her emergency procedure plan?

Are you claiming that Linnea's OW course in the tropics would have taught her how much weight she'd need in a drysuit? The 10% figure you mention does not appear in my OW manual and is also nonsensical; different kinds of exposure protection warrant different amounts of weight. Most people need a lot less than 10% of their body weight in a shorty wetsuit, and a lot more than 10% in a drysuit. PADI teaches an in-water weight check, but that doesn't stop you from initially entering the water with too much weight. I'm honestly flabbergasted that you're putting this on her. It would be one thing if she decided to do this on her own. But she wasn't even the one physically putting weights in her pockets--her instructor did that.

2- using non-functional equipment…by putting on a used Drysuit you bought the day of, then knowing you had no inflator mechanism and still using it? Really? Learning to check equipment and abort any dive that doesn’t pass the s-drill safety checks is OW classroom and BWRAF pool and open water ALL DIVES.

S-Drills? In PADI OW?

I don't think there's any standards violation in diving a used drysuit you bought the day of, especially with an instructor. Her instructor was supposed to teach her how to check this particular piece of equipment, and not only did she fail, she explicitly told her it was OK to dive without the inflator hose. Again, I can't believe you're putting this on the student.

3- knowing you have none of the requisite specialties used on the dive and Being okay doing all for the first time in a single dive; a-deep, b-night, c-Drysuit, d-ice, e-AOW, f-low viz; there is a whole section on mission objectives and not task loading, using incremental experience growth…

a) it wasn't supposed to be a deep dive. The instructor chose an inappropriate site.
b) it wasn't supposed to be a night dive, and it technically wasn't night yet. You're asking a lot of the victim to make that leap.
c) her instructor told her to get the drysuit and told her it was safe to dive.
d) ice? What ice?
e) yes, it was supposed to be her AOW course, which is why she should have been able to expect to go beyond her previous limits while being watched over and guided.
f) she was supposed to know the viz before she got in?

So while the shop and instructor are clearly at fault, the victim here violated rules and training she learned too…. “


“In the section on weighting in Open Water AND the elearning for Advanced Open Water (which had to be completed BEFORE DIVING) for a OW dives the rule is 10% +/- of body weight adjusted for salinity and exposure protection.

OK now you're explicitly stating this 10% figure comes from PADI. I'd like to see a screenshot or at least a direct quote.

 

[Omisson]

Really? I've been reading the thread as it's happening, and I don't recall seeing you make this claim before. Are you sure it was this thread? Can you quote one of these four posts of yours?

Are you claiming that Linnea's OW course in the tropics would have taught her how much weight she'd need in a drysuit? The 10% figure you mention does not appear in my OW manual and is also nonsensical; different kinds of exposure protection warrant different amounts of weight. Most people need a lot less than 10% of their body weight in a shorty wetsuit, and a lot more than 10% in a drysuit. PADI teaches an in-water weight check, but that doesn't stop you from initially entering the water with too much weight. I'm honestly flabbergasted that you're putting this on her. It would be one thing if she decided to do this on her own. But she wasn't even the one physically putting weights in her pockets--her instructor did that.

S-Drills? In PADI OW?

I don't think there's any standards violation in diving a used drysuit you bought the day of, especially with an instructor. Her instructor was supposed to teach her how to check this particular piece of equipment, and not only did she fail, she explicitly told her it was OK to dive without the inflator hose. Again, I can't believe you're putting this on the student.

a) it wasn't supposed to be a deep dive. The instructor chose an inappropriate site.
b) it wasn't supposed to be a night dive, and it technically wasn't night yet. You're asking a lot of the victim to make that leap.
c) her instructor told her to get the drysuit and told her it was safe to dive.
d) ice? What ice?
e) yes, it was supposed to be her AOW course, which is why she should have been able to expect to go beyond her previous limits while being watched over and guided.
f) she was supposed to know the viz before she got in?

OK now you're explicitly stating this 10% figure comes from PADI. I'd like to see a screenshot or at least a direct quote.

You really want to waste everyone’s time with this- I’ll play along- if for no other reasons than to show you have no idea what you are talking about AND to show that a diver who doesn’t bother to actually read and absorb materials from any training agency is likely to end up making dumb mistakes they can’t simply blame an instructor on- I’ll go point buy point to keep it relevant. Stand by for screen shots.

 

[Omisson]

PADI AOW Weight Guidelines from elearning course:
Now don’t you look stupid?

 

[Omisson]

OK now you're explicitly stating this 10% figure comes from PADI. I'd like to see a screenshot or at least a direct quote.

 

[Omisson]

No standards violation?

 

[Omisson]

S-Drills? In PADI OW?

 

[Omisson]

Are you claiming that Linnea's OW course in the tropics would have taught her how much weight she'd need in a drysuit? The 10% figure you mention does not appear in my OW manual and is also nonsensical; different kinds of exposure protection warrant different amounts of weight. Most people need a lot less than 10% of their body weight in a shorty wetsuit, and a lot more than 10% in a drysuit. PADI teaches an in-water weight check, but that doesn't stop you from initially entering the water with too much weight. I'm honestly flabbergasted that you're putting this on her. It would be one thing if she decided to do this on her own. But she wasn't even the one physically putting weights in her pockets--her instructor did that.

Here are all the PADI OW and AOW elearning sections that warned her again and again about what she needed to know….

but hey YOU clearly paid attention to the program….