Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[boulderjohn]

As I am sure you know regards boards, committees, etc., but they virtually always require signing non disclosures. Sorry that upsets you. Not interested in getting sued to expose some stuff, for what? I tried, I failed, not my problem any longer.

Got it. You can't tell the scuba industry as a whole what it needs to do to save itself because that would violate a non-disclosure agreement.

 

[cerich]

Got it. You can't tell the scuba industry as a whole what it needs to do to save itself because that would violate a non-disclosure agreement.

What is the vehicle for that?

I had many conversations with the heads of agencies, competitor brands, Dema exec director and board members. On a wide range of stuff. Some are specific recommendations based on stuff that was confidential, some trends, some analytics.

What do you want John? Ask people in positions similar to mine who were there if I was vocal, if I pointed out what was happening and coming and if I offered solutions. You obviously don't believe me, and to a great degree, I don't care. The reason I don't care is that you decided long ago that I was just a Padi hater and your enemy. Go look in your PM's with me a while back.

If you think you have a solid enough grasp of the industry and the risks both external and internal, you make recommendations. There may be some insights worth looking at, you're a bright guy. However, as someone with a lower level experience base as a part time instructor you may be missing some of the forces at play as well.

If anyone wants me to give recommendations now, pony up ($500 a day)because I did for free for a long time. As someone who has worked at every level of the industry for 27 years, has a MBA and my CV, I'm worth it. Very, very few people in this industry have my knowledge and experience base. That is just what it is. In fairness, many have made more money, because I never approached the privilege of making a living in diving putting my ethics aside and greed as my goal. Plus, I liked helping people along the way that otherwise would not have been able to afford to work in the industry.

But, whatever. Here is a freebie on industry in North America. Insurance will be twice as high in 5-7 yrs, if still available. Independent Instructors will not exist in North America per say and we will have about 20% less shops, a third less brands operating as they are now(most will be consolidated, so will still see the brand..but) and other than a few we won't see as many agencies operating in the US (but will likely still exist in international or very niche markets) because of the insurance and legal landscape. There will be serious examination of the industry by various levels of government and rumblings of regulation of the industry by government. The big still operating agencies in the states will look to have a seat at the table when that occurs to carve out becoming a gatekeeper and monetize for themselves (which they know is gonna happen and have been busy positioning for already, when in fact that has closed to door to a better solution) . That will be bloody and amusing to watch.

 

[Wookie]

What is the vehicle for that?

I had many conversations with the heads of agencies, competitor brands, Dema exec director and board members. On a wide range of stuff. Some are specific recommendations based on stuff that was confidential, some trends, some analytics.

What do you want John? Ask people in positions similar to mine who were there if I was vocal, if I pointed out what was happening and coming and if I offered solutions. You obviously don't believe me, and to a great degree, I don't care. The reason I don't care is that you decided long ago that I was just a Padi hater and your enemy. Go look in your PM's with me a while back.

If you think you have a solid enough grasp of the industry and the risks both external and internal, you make recommendations. There may be some insights worth looking at, you're a bright guy. However, as someone with a lower level experience base as a part time instructor you may be missing some of the forces at play as well.

If anyone wants me to give recommendations now, pony up ($500 a day)because I did for free for a long time. As someone who has worked at every level of the industry for 27 years, has a MBA and my CV, I'm worth it. Very, very few people in this industry have my knowledge and experience base. That is just what it is. In fairness, many have made more money, because I never approached the privilege of making a living in diving putting my ethics aside and greed as my goal. Plus, I liked helping people along the way that otherwise would not have been able to afford to work in the industry.

But, whatever. Here is a freebie on industry in North America. Insurance will be twice as high in 5-7 yrs, if still available. Independent Instructors will not exist in North America per say and we will have about 20% less shops, a third less brands operating as they are now(most will be consolidated, so will still see the brand..but) and other than a few we won't see as many agencies operating in the US (but will likely still exist in international or very niche markets) because of the insurance and legal landscape. There will be serious examination of the industry by various levels of government and rumblings of regulation of the industry by government. The big still operating agencies in the states will look to have a seat at the table when that occurs to carve out becoming a gatekeeper and monetize for themselves (which they know is gonna happen and have been busy positioning for already, when in fact that has closed to door to a better solution) . That will be bloody and amusing to watch.

Are you trying to say that insurance since oh, say, Tuvell has almost doubled, that consolidation of Atomic, Oceanic, Bare, Stahlsac, Zeagle, Riffe, Hollis, and Tusa under a single umbrella might happen? Are you trying to imply that insurance would lose the cachet of Lloyds will disappear? ARE YOU SAYING THAT THERE MAY BE TRAINING AGENCIES THAT WILL NO LONGER EXIST?!?!?!? like NACD, ACUC, IDA, ISE, NDEA, NASDS, PSAI and YMCA?

What the **** do you know?

 

[cerich]

Are you trying to say that insurance since oh, say, Tuvell has almost doubled, that consolidation of Atomic, Oceanic, Bare, Stahlsac, Zeagle, Riffe, Hollis, and Tusa under a single umbrella might happen? Are you trying to imply that insurance would lose the cachet of Lloyds will disappear? ARE YOU SAYING THAT THERE MAY BE TRAINING AGENCIES THAT WILL NO LONGER EXIST?!?!?!? like NACD, ACUC, IDA, ISE, NDEA, NASDS, PSAI and YMCA?

What the **** do you know?

yes Frank, some trends will continue, some slower than logic would dictate because the dude on a paid off single wide can be more tenacious in hanging on and some trends are in an acceleration phase.
You we can talk specifics on the phone, or better yet you and Mel are going come join the Richardson clan in a warm place, a beach, a bar and some sweet easy diving within a few steps of the bar


( )

 

[ginti]

In our half of the world (Europe) diving training is mostly done outside agencies, in clubs, which are no-profit entities. Usually they are affiliated to a national federation, which is recognised by the International Olympic Committee.
These national federations are coordinated internationally by CMAS, more than 100 no-profit organizations adhere to CMAS. In UK they have BSAC, which is similar, but did exit from CMAS many years ago.
All this no-profit organization started in the fifties, mostly in Italy and France, and then expanded in many more countries.
Instructors here are volunteers, and are fully unpaid. Tips are considered a very bad habit here, quite offensive.
Becoming an instructor in these no-profit federations is much more difficult and take longer than with for-profit agencies. It did take me 4 years of training before becoming a one-star instructor, and other four years for going up to a full 3-stars Cmas instructor.
So, yes, it is fully possible to have good training without US-style agencies, which are for-profit entities.
And of course without "shops", which are quite evil entities in my vision, because they are a good example of a conflict of interests.

In our half of the world (Europe) diving training WAS mostly done outside agencies, but that situation is changing quite fast.

 

[Vicko]

Not to be a jerk, but US market is a minor player in the scuba industry, just because your litigious culture led to frankly ridiculous circumstances that make it very unappealing to work as a scuba professional does not mean there is going to be a apocalyptic scuba crash.

In our half of the world (Europe) diving training WAS mostly done outside agencies, but that situation is changing quite fast.

Excluding BSAC the national agencies training is becoming obsolete. Materials are old, standards are older and support for individual instructors is not existent.

 

[cerich]

Not to be a jerk, but US market is a minor player in the scuba industry, just because your litigious culture led to frankly ridiculous circumstances that make it very unappealing to work as a scuba professional does not mean there is going to be a apocalyptic scuba crash.


Excluding BSAC the national agencies training is becoming obsolete. Materials are old, standards are older and support for individual instructors is not existent.

It is not a minor player, but certainly the dominance and influence it had is ending.

 

[Wookie]

It is not a minor player, but certainly the dominance and influence it had is ending.

Still relevant in a waning market, as evidenced by the fanboys who will defend the business model at any cost.

By waning, I mean the virtual demise of US based liveaboards (fewer than 10 or so left), the general distrust of the dive shop model, as evidenced by many threads on this forum, although we hear more from disgruntled customers than happy ones, and the rise of online sales.

 

[boulderjohn]

What do you want John? Ask people in positions similar to mine who were there if I was vocal, if I pointed out what was happening and coming and if I offered solutions. You obviously don't believe me, and to a great degree, I don't care.

I never said I doubted you.

What is it I want? You keep saying the scuba industry is doomed because they won't apply the common sense solutions that you and Frank (Wookie) know and have told them they need to follow. I am as sure as you that things are going downhill, but I have no idea what a common sense solution might be. All I am asking is for you and Frank to relate those common sense solutions so that the rest of us know what they are and can advocate for them.

I simply don't understand why you two are keeping them a secret if they are so necessary.

 

[SlugLife]

So take a few minutes to describe how the improved diving industry would work without agencies. Please deliver the details of agency-less dive instruction.

Would it be like the way my cousin learned in the early 1960s, when the salesman in the department store where he bought his equipment took 5 minutes to tell him how to use it?

I'm not exactly 100% picking one side or another.

I don't think the only alternative is "a salesman giving a 5-minute explanation on how to use dive-equipment."

We have several dive agencies today of varying quality, and questionable vetting of their instructors. The way you find a good instructor, is somewhat like how you find a good car-mechanic. Reviewing what their material, reviews, and references. It's easily possible to pick bad ones, but that's also quite possible even today.

Still relevant in a waning market, as evidenced by the fanboys who will defend the business model at any cost.

By waning, I mean the virtual demise of US based liveaboards (fewer than 10 or so left), the general distrust of the dive shop model, as evidenced by many threads on this forum, although we hear more from disgruntled customers than happy ones, and the rise of online sales.

There seems to be a few broad generalizations here. I can only speak for me.

What I will say is as a scuba-diver, I just want to dive. I don't give a fk about scuba-shops, training-agencies, scuba-politics, and so on. That is until those things are made to be my problem. And they are my problem when:

• Scuba-classes are very expensive, but my friendly and helpful Scuba-instructors take home pennies.
• Local-dive shops charge significantly more than online retailers.
• Local-dive shops screw me over.
• Independent tutoring is rarely available, because agencies prohibit it. (edit: this point may be inaccurate)

Someone else I dive with, who has far more experience than I do, never really "peeks behind the curtain" or hangs out on places like scubaboard. He has similar experiences being screwed over by dive-shops, but otherwise seems much less unaware of industry problems.

"Why don't I do something about it?" The simple reason is there is only one me. The whole scuba-industry issue is just one of dozens of similar things I've encountered over the years, and I've already picked one such opportunity to focus on where my individual skills, experience, and insight will make the biggest impact and allow me to earn a living doing the thing long term. There's also seeing a problem, knowing what to do about it, and finally having the skills and resources to do the thing.

As a busy filthy-casual, I'll happily side-step "the industry" given the opportunity to do so. Independent instructors. Shopping from reputable online businesses. DIY projects. Self/online teaching. I've done all that and more. I'd even buy air-fills online, if that was a thing.