Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[boulderjohn]

Do you really, deep down in your heart of hearts, think that training agencies add value to the “industry”?

I find them to be publishing companies, insurance clubs, and handy advertising. But they protect bad shops and bad instructors, and give prospective and actual students a false sense of safety with the whole “agents” argument. It is my belief that agencies will allow you to believe that they closely oversee shops and instructors, and require close adherence to “standards”, but in reality, they don’t get involved until a fatality happens.

I’m not sure how secondary and higher education works, but in nuclear power the operator is actually trained to a programs with standards set by a regulatory agency, and then tested to determine their level of knowledge, then randomly tested throughout their career.

Recreational diving is not nuclear power. But I am of the opinion that scuba training agencies never publicly advertise that they disavow the whole agency argument.

I haven’t opened an open water manual in 15 years. Does it proclaim in the forward or in chapter one that (whatever training agency) is really a publisher of books and trainer of instructors and that standards are only enforced when an accident happens?

So take a few minutes to describe how the improved diving industry would work without agencies. Please deliver the details of agency-less dive instruction.

Would it be like the way my cousin learned in the early 1960s, when the salesman in the department store where he bought his equipment took 5 minutes to tell him how to use it?

 

[cerich]

So take a few minutes to describe how the improved diving industry would work without agencies. Please deliver the details of agency-less dive instruction.

Would it be like the way my cousin learned in the early 1960s, when the salesman in the department store where he bought his equipment took 5 minutes to tell him how to use it?

I bolded something in what you said.

Because in discussion of this case myself, I keep on using agencies.

The legal pitfall of agency is real, regardless of the efforts to move away from using that term because of the legal issue what the agencies were called was accurate.
We self regulated as an industry, how is that working out? What's the next chapter? The legal environment in the states could end up effectively destroying the recreational dive industry here. The industry was warned in no uncertain terms in 2013 that we as an industry was becoming uninsurable. DAN stepped in the gap, V&B and First dive stayed in and everyone else left. More concerning was the underwriters that left, we went from what could be termed "prime" underwriters to more risk underwriters. Agencies and industry groups got fully informed that the actuarial forecast for our industry showed that we would not be able to sustain even high risk at any price for long unless there was systemic change. We didn't. The premium increases we are seeing are exactly what we were told to expect and that when we got there we were one major settlement away from "at no cost". Is this case the one major settlement? Possibly, keep in mind that the defending dive shop themselves got awarded 240 million in their own kids wrongful death suit in their state..
There are answers, but some of us have tried to scream about them at the table with DEMA, RSTC and agencies for ages, and I can't speak for them (but have to them) and for me, I am tired and not so inclined to help fight out what of what could have been avoided. I am not alone in that feeling.

 

[boulderjohn]

There are answers, but some of us have tried to scream about them at the table with DEMA, RSTC and agencies for ages, and I can't speak for them (but have to them) and for me, I am tired and not so inclined to help fight out what of what could have been avoided. I am not alone in that feeling.

So everyone talking now seems to know the answer, they seem to know what should have been done long ago, but they are so tired of talking about them that they don't want to talk about it any more.

It's funny that I haven't heard the details of these endless calls for reform. I haven't seen the threads on ScubaBoard about them. Oh, I have seen endless threads saying that "the agencies suck" and "they need to do something," but I have missed out on the specifics of what needs to be done. When I say "specifics," I am referring to actual details rather than vague comments that translate to "do better."

In the meantime, we can all look to the thread about Ginnie Springs and CDA being sued over a diver's death and what that may mean for the future of diving as well.

 

[SlugLife]

Do you really, deep down in your heart of hearts, think that training agencies add value to the “industry”?

I see them as middle-men, siphoning money off the industry. The also attempt propagandize new divers into buying into their program, and I always find it cringe (and insulting) when I'm "forced" to watch some online training materials that are extremely boring, and have even worse marketing materials injected throughout.

Disclaimer: I haven't reviewed the facts of this case to have an opinion on whether PADI should have any liability.

That said, bad legal precedents, even against "bad people" can turn around to haunt us all, and is not something we should be wishing for. Ideally, liability should be based on actual legal concepts, that are fair and balanced to all parties.

negligence

www.law.cornell.edu

Perhaps an argument could be made that PADI/SSI/etc is vouching for these instructors, and as such is making some kind of guarantee, and therefore you could start to build a case. However, I might also need something were we could see that in this particular case PADI had received sufficient warning about the instructor, more than just occasional random complaints, and chose to do nothing.

 

[Wookie]

So take a few minutes to describe how the improved diving industry would work without agencies. Please deliver the details of agency-less dive instruction.

Would it be like the way my cousin learned in the early 1960s, when the salesman in the department store where he bought his equipment took 5 minutes to tell him how to use it?

Did your cousin die diving?

Did he continue to dive after the salesman in the department store sold him the gear? In Maine it was Portland Maine Hardware, they sold my uncle a complete set of gear, he jumped off of Town Landing in Falmouth, and walked back to shore with 30something lbs of lead. You know what? He figured it out.

Training agencies make it “easy for anyone to dive”. Problem is, not everyone should dive. But the agencies have created a “dive industry” that only works because of churn. We don’t make divers, we make people who want a diving experience. If training agencies made divers, I’d be far more of a fan of training agencies, but that isn’t the business model of the agency, the model of a training agency is to sell overpriced books and materials, and make as many “professionals” as possible and get them to buy membership and insurance.

Insurance protects the agency, and I have long maintained this. If it didn’t protect the agency, agencies wouldn’t mandate that the instructor carry insurance.

In a perfect (AFAIC) world, someone who wanted to be an instructor would hang out their shingle and teach diving. If they were a true professional, they would have word of mouth and referrals and would train well and do a good business. Those who are crap instructors would also get referrals and word of mouth and they would spend their time installing moorings and cleaning sailboat hulls.

I have had the misfortune to be associated with 4 instructor mills, all of whom were sanctioned by their agency, (different agencies), three of whom were sucking VA funds like it was free tax dollars, all of whom were selling “the dream”. 3 are gone now, one is still very much still in business. Their product is, in my opinion, junk. Thankfully, most don’t go on to actually teach, they just want the 2 years of VA money living in paradise and getting Uncle to buy them rebreathers.

I am happy that training agencies publish materials. I’m not even opposed to membership and standards and quality instructors. But if training agencies are going to allow students to believe that the training agency actually oversee their instructors, then the training agencies need to actually do so, with the alternative being just selling manuals to divers.

I have known (called friends) employees of the training department of PADI, board members of NAUI and IANTD, I consider the largest scuba insurer in North America a friend, and been a liveaboard operator for 20 years. The only generalization I can draw of the scuba “industry” is that profit trumps integrity every time.

I find a few folks with integrity. The trainer from PADI, she quit because of things she saw. The board member of NAUI, he was sent packing because he placed integrity over profits. I believe you do what you think is the right thing to do, regardless of any consequences. There are others. But there are far more willing to cut corners in search of profit than doing the right thing.

I’ve been in Seeley Lake. It is never an appropriate open water venue.

 

[cerich]

So everyone talking now seems to know the answer, they seem to know what should have been done long ago, but they are so tired of talking about them that they don't want to talk about it any more.

It's funny that I haven't heard the details of these endless calls for reform. I haven't seen the threads on ScubaBoard about them. Of, I have seen endless threads saying that "the agencies suck" and "they need to do something," but I have missed out on the specifics of what needs to be done. When I say "specifics," I am referring to details other than vague comments that translate to "do better."

In the meantime, we can all look to the thread about Ginnie Springs and CDA being sued over a diver's death and what that may mean for the future of diving as well.

I don't recall you on the board of any training agency, the RSTC, advisory groups, an equipment brand etc. You know, places I have been.
Regardless, some of what I discussed there has been mentioned somewhat here, go back thru all my posts if you wish. Some recommendations and suggestions I made were made behind the closed doors in the confidence required of the organizations involved.

 

[boulderjohn]

I don't recall you on the board of any training agency, the RSTC, advisory groups, an equipment brand etc. You know, places I have been.
Regardless, some of what I discussed there has been mentioned somewhat here, go back thru all my posts if you wish. Some recommendations and suggestions I made were made behind the closed doors in the confidence required of the organizations involved.

So Let me get this straight.

You and others fought furiously for changes that you thought were absolutely essential to the survival of the scuba industry, but you only mentioned them in meetings of the board of an agency, the RSTC, and one equipment company, and since worthless peons like me were not there, we never heard about these essential steps that had to be taken or the scuba industry was doomed. For the rest of us, those are deep secrets.

But we can possibly figure some of them out if we go through all your posts, possibly using a secret decoder ring or ouija board.

Sorry. I don't have the energy.

 

[Angelo Farina]

So take a few minutes to describe how the improved diving industry would work without agencies. Please deliver the details of agency-less dive instruction.

In our half of the world (Europe) diving training is mostly done outside agencies, in clubs, which are no-profit entities. Usually they are affiliated to a national federation, which is recognised by the International Olympic Committee.
These national federations are coordinated internationally by CMAS, more than 100 no-profit organizations adhere to CMAS. In UK they have BSAC, which is similar, but did exit from CMAS many years ago.
All this no-profit organization started in the fifties, mostly in Italy and France, and then expanded in many more countries.
Instructors here are volunteers, and are fully unpaid. Tips are considered a very bad habit here, quite offensive.
Becoming an instructor in these no-profit federations is much more difficult and take longer than with for-profit agencies. It did take me 4 years of training before becoming a one-star instructor, and other four years for going up to a full 3-stars Cmas instructor.
So, yes, it is fully possible to have good training without US-style agencies, which are for-profit entities.
And of course without "shops", which are quite evil entities in my vision, because they are a good example of a conflict of interests.

 

[Angelo Farina]

Despite being off topic, I haven't heard of an Air2 killing a diver, ever. But I'd love to read about it.

An Air2 is an additional air source which is some occasion could come handy. Of course, having an Air2 does not allow to get rid of the secondary regulator...
So I see it as a win-win case: the shop sells two regulators plus an Air2. The instructor teaches that one should always have two fully operational regs (possibly with two first stages, as I always do), and an additional Air2 for really complex emergency cases.

 

[cerich]

So Let me get this straight.

You and others fought furiously for changes that you thought were absolutely essential to the survival of the scuba industry, but you only mentioned them in meetings of the board of an agency, the RSTC, and one equipment company, and since worthless peons like me were not there, we never heard about these essential steps that had to be taken or the scuba industry was doomed. For the rest of us, those are deep secrets.

But we can possibly figure some of them out if we go through all your posts, possibly using a secret decoder ring or ouija board.

Sorry. I don't have the energy.

Sigh... to your points John

OK, so you first diminish and inaccurately state what I have done in 27 years in the dive industry. Does that make you feel more important?
Yes, the path has been clear for the last 2 decades, and less than decade ago the insurance industry made it even more clear. Case studies of other industries also showed pretty clearly where this would end, and mitigation that "may" or "could" have worked, but the dive industry is a very short term animal, and the boomers that made a fortune in the VERY profitable 70-90's were either blind or if not more interested in doing whatever asset stripping they could do in their twilight than worried about the future.

As I am sure you know regards boards, committees, etc., but they virtually always require signing non disclosures. Sorry that upsets you. Not interested in getting sued to expose some stuff, for what? I tried, I failed, not my problem any longer.

I would suggest using the search function or start at my profile and go thru post history over a decoder ring or ouija board but you do you.