Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[Wookie]

Agreed. But if the opinion given is along the lines of "I think agency X sucks" Then it is agency bashing IMO.

Yes, but “I think agency XXX sucks worse than Agency YYY because agency XXX requires an underwater handstand during the aquabatics portion of the shenanigans merit badge” is certainly legit.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Yes, but “I think agency XXX sucks worse than Agency YYY because agency XXX requires an underwater handstand during the aquabatics portion of the shenanigans merit badge” is certainly legit.

Maybe....I think it depends on the context.

 

[kammel78]

Maybe....I think it depends on the context.

But...why? Where else are divers going to get honest opinions of businesses they choose to give their money to?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Agreed. But if the opinion given is along the lines of "I think agency X sucks" Then it is agency bashing IMO.

Awesome! That certainly excludes me then!

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

But...why? Where else are divers going to get honest opinions of businesses they choose to give their money to?

Yelp, Trip Advisor, Google to name a few.

This has been hashed and rehashed. All the scuba training agencies standards are fine. The way that individual instructors adhere to and follow those standards is the issue.

If we identify an instructor who blatantly violated standards and proof exists ( no supposition, inference or third party hearsay) then bash the instructor, not the agency s/he was teaching under.

Remember this: There is no agency relationship between instructors and training agencies.

 

[boulderjohn]

Remember this: There is no agency relationship between instructors and training agencies.

I believe a lot of people do not understand what this means.

For instructors who teach for a dive shop, it is the dive shop that sets the conditions of their employment. It tells them what to do. I tells them when to do it. The instructor is an agent of the shop. If the shop tells the instructor to do something that violates agency standards, then the instructor has to decide whether to do as told or leave that shop.

For independent instructors, the instructor sets his or her conditions of employment, deciding what to do and when to do it. If the instructor violates agency standards in doing so, then that is the instructor's decision.

 

[kammel78]

Yelp, Trip Advisor, Google to name a few.

This has been hashed and rehashed. All the scuba training agencies standards are fine. The way that individual instructors adhere to and follow those standards is the issue.

If we identify an instructor who blatantly violated standards and proof exists ( no supposition, inference or third party hearsay) then bash the instructor, not the agency s/he was teaching under.

Remember this: There is no agency relationship between instructors and training agencies.

Yelp? Really?

I'm not talking about instructors. I completely agree that an experience with a particular class or instructor should NOT be conflated with the parent organization. However, the way certain agencies approach their respective business models varies wildly as does their execution of their training programs. For example, SSI's technical training materials, sucked. Gross errors and just plain shoddy proofreading. It was embarrassing.

Another example more relevant to this case I believe is giving potential students the ability to search and see if a particular instructor or dive shop is in current good standing with the training agency.

And, as an instructor, there are certainly pretty strong opinions about agencies and how they handle situations. NAUI and their absolute ****show shenanigans, other agencies and how easy/difficult it is to look up students/issue cards/order materials, etc...

Training agencies profit off divers, dive instructors and dive shops and I see no reason why a forum that embraces at least 2 of those 3 should in any way be muzzled when it comes to expressing opinions of them.

 

[Wookie]

From Linnea’s Mom’s Facebook page:

Here is an update on Linnea's death case:

This past week was incredible. We continue to seek justice for Linnea, but the twists, turns and roadblocks have been legendary. What happened to our daughter is bad enough. What is happening to us now at the hands of the people who failed our daughter is beyond belief.

First, after reviewing more than 800 pages of new information received from the National Park Service and an eye-witness, our lawyers filed an amended complaint on Monday incorporating new information. Among the highlights:

• Linnea’s dry suit was partially unzipped when she entered the water. The person helping her did not close it all the way. Her undergarments were soaked through.
• Somebody took the downloadable dive computer off Linnea’s body and removed it from the scene. It was in the possession of Jeannine Olson and Debbie Snow ten days later. The National Park Service (NPS) investigators knew this but they never retrieved the computer or the data, nor did they recommend charges to the U.S. Attorney for tampering with evidence. The whereabouts of the computer now is unknown.
• The NPS investigators at Glacier were fantastic. They consulted outside experts, marshaled evidence and did an excellent job investigating our daughter’s accident. Unfortunately, they were relieved of their duties by the NPS’s Investigative Services Branch (ISB) less than two weeks later.
• These ISB “investigators,” if you could seriously call them that, were buffoons. They stopped communicating with outside experts, failed to marshal evidence, seemed uninterested in asking probing questions (or unable to do so), told key people with information not to speak to our investigators, and failed to present proper information to the U.S. Attorney’s office. We will be addressing the shortcomings in the ISB’s investigation with the Inspector General of the Dept. of the Interior and members of Congress with oversight of the Dept. of the Interior.

Second, the new information we received changed our view of Seth Liston, so we dropped him as a party to the case. Astonishingly, Gull Dive, the Olsons, Debbie Snow and PADI are now trying to prevent us from doing so! They have lodged objections and now our lawyers have asked the Judge to let us let Seth go.

Third, our lawyers have asked the Judge to protect the video of Linnea dying and her lifeless body on the beach, and Gull Dive, the Olsons, Debbie Snow and PADI are opposing this too! Even Seth Liston’s lawyer is opposed, despite the fact that his client has been dropped from the case. This is particularly disturbing. We do not want to see this video on the Internet, and the law is on our side, but the defendants are fighting against us. We want to preserve our daughter’s dignity and memory. Now, we have to fight the people who killed her so we can do so.

It’s just another week on the road to justice for Linnea.

 

[lermontov]

From Linnea’s Mom’s Facebook page:

Here is an update on Linnea's death case:

This past week was incredible. We continue to seek justice for Linnea, but the twists, turns and roadblocks have been legendary. What happened to our daughter is bad enough. What is happening to us now at the hands of the people who failed our daughter is beyond belief.

First, after reviewing more than 800 pages of new information received from the National Park Service and an eye-witness, our lawyers filed an amended complaint on Monday incorporating new information. Among the highlights:

• Linnea’s dry suit was partially unzipped when she entered the water. The person helping her did not close it all the way. Her undergarments were soaked through.
• Somebody took the downloadable dive computer off Linnea’s body and removed it from the scene. It was in the possession of Jeannine Olson and Debbie Snow ten days later. The National Park Service (NPS) investigators knew this but they never retrieved the computer or the data, nor did they recommend charges to the U.S. Attorney for tampering with evidence. The whereabouts of the computer now is unknown.
• The NPS investigators at Glacier were fantastic. They consulted outside experts, marshaled evidence and did an excellent job investigating our daughter’s accident. Unfortunately, they were relieved of their duties by the NPS’s Investigative Services Branch (ISB) less than two weeks later.
• These ISB “investigators,” if you could seriously call them that, were buffoons. They stopped communicating with outside experts, failed to marshal evidence, seemed uninterested in asking probing questions (or unable to do so), told key people with information not to speak to our investigators, and failed to present proper information to the U.S. Attorney’s office. We will be addressing the shortcomings in the ISB’s investigation with the Inspector General of the Dept. of the Interior and members of Congress with oversight of the Dept. of the Interior.

Second, the new information we received changed our view of Seth Liston, so we dropped him as a party to the case. Astonishingly, Gull Dive, the Olsons, Debbie Snow and PADI are now trying to prevent us from doing so! They have lodged objections and now our lawyers have asked the Judge to let us let Seth go.

Third, our lawyers have asked the Judge to protect the video of Linnea dying and her lifeless body on the beach, and Gull Dive, the Olsons, Debbie Snow and PADI are opposing this too! Even Seth Liston’s lawyer is opposed, despite the fact that his client has been dropped from the case. This is particularly disturbing. We do not want to see this video on the Internet, and the law is on our side, but the defendants are fighting against us. We want to preserve our daughter’s dignity and memory. Now, we have to fight the people who killed her so we can do so.

It’s just another week on the road to justice for Linnea.

hard to comprehend how authorities are allowing this to go on

 

[Omisson]

”… our lawyers have asked the Judge to protect the video of Linnea dying and her lifeless body on the beach, and Gull Dive, the Olsons, Debbie Snow and PADI are opposing this too! Even Seth Liston’s lawyer is opposed, despite the fact that his client has been dropped from the case. This is particularly disturbing. We do not want to see this video on the Internet, and the law is on our side, but the defendants are fighting against us. We want to preserve our daughter’s dignity and memory….”

Respectfully, as soon as a the family chose to file a lawsuit the whole “keep the video secret” thing was our the window.

You can’t seal one of the most critical - and central- pieces of evidence in a wrongful death case and hope to prevail. While I’m sure the family has an interest in maintaining her dignity- that’s just not how litigation works there is a “sunlight standard” for most evidence…

I can see PADI wanting it out there to prove the instructor violated standards and was grossly negligent. Similarly- I’d imagine there are other contributory negligence issues it raises against the plaintiff.

in sum this is neither surprising nor out of jurisprudential norms….