Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[Wookie]

PADI routinely sends surveys to recently certified PADI divers asking them about their class. They ask things such as: Did you do a CESA, did you have to remove, replace and clear your mask and others. I see this as a QA process.

If a person files a complaint against a PADI DM or instructor PADI investigates the complaint. I see this as a QA process also.

I wouldn’t argue that. I have filled out a number of incident reports, and spoken to Pat Foucek a number of times. I’m not making a statement about PADI’s QA process, I’m repeating the PADI legal Beagle’s statement.

Wondering how they reconcile the statements.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Wondering how they reconcile the statements.

Yea, me too. The statement and their actions seem contradictory.

 

[DavidFL]

It may be lawyerspeak?

The declaration by Counselor Hornsby that was an attachment is in support of a motion to dismiss PADI Worldwide as a defendant. So, yes I would think that PADI Worldwide's lawyer is speaking here to try to establish that the Quality Management system is not in the PADI Worldwide corporate entity, to support the motion to dismiss PADI Worldwide as a defendant from the civil action.

Could just be the general principle that being exposed twice (as two separate defendants) is worse than being exposed once, and it could also be related to my earlier hunch that their liability insurance coverage is at a much higher level in the highly litigious "Americas" than it is worldwide. Even though both entities in this case are incorporated in the USA, if they can successfully get one of the two entities dismissed from the action that's likely to be considered to lower their overall exposure.

 

[Esprise Me]

Hmmm. The same declaration states:

While the PADI membership agreement is with PADI Worldwide, regional PADI entities, rather than PADI Worldwide, administer PADI membership.

and

For example, PADI membership in the U.S. states and territories, including CNMI, is administered by PADI Americas, Inc. (“PADI America”), another Defendant in the above-captioned lawsuit.

He's denying a QA system at PADI Worldwide, but his written declaration is silent about the subject with regard to "regional PADI entities" in general or PADI America specifically.

Not completely silent, but barely a whisper:

9. In order for an individual or a dive center to become a member of PADI, the individual or dive center must meet certain qualification criteria, agree to abide by PADI training standards, agree to be subjected to PADI’s quality assurance review if there is any issue regarding the individual’s or dive center’s adherence to PADI training standards, sign a PADI membership agreement with PADI Worldwide that specifies that the individual or dive center, upon being granted membership, is not an agent, employee, or franchisee of any PADI entity, and pay PADI a membership fee.

Bolding mine. So PADI does have QA somewhere, and if it's not worldwide it must be regional or lower. I'm out of my depth speculating as to why they might do it that way; could be to limit liability (if PADI Americas screws up, at least the rest of the ship doesn't go down with it), or something less cynical, like putting locals who understand the local culture in charge of enforcing standards because they'll do it more effectively.

 

[boulderjohn]

There was some discussion earlier about PADI Quality Assurance and why the shop was still teaching PADI scuba after their earlier fatality. It seems that Mr. Hornsby thinks that PADI has no QA Program.

17. The “PADI” mark and PADI logos and certifications are not designed to serve as a guarantee or assurance by PADI Worldwide of any PADI member’s competence or adherence to PADI safety standards, and PADI Worldwide has never represented to anyone that they are
designed to serve as such a guarantee or assurance by PADI Worldwide.

18. PADI Worldwide has never claimed or represented to divers that PADI Worldwide has a comprehensive monitoring system to ensure all of its certified instructors comply with PADI safety standards.”

PADI routinely sends surveys to recently certified PADI divers asking them about their class. They ask things such as: Did you do a CESA, did you have to remove, replace and clear your mask and others. I see this as a QA process.

If a person files a complaint against a PADI DM or instructor PADI investigates the complaint. I see this as a QA process also.

Yea, me too. The statement and their actions seem contradictory.

So, here is a former English teacher's reading of this.

1. Nowhere does Hornsby say that PADI does not have a Quality Assurance program. Wookie is the only person saying that.

2. In #17, he says that PADI has never represented that their logos (etc.) serve as a guarantee or assurance by PADI Worldwide of any PADI member’s competence or adherence to PADI safety standards, and PADI Worldwide has never represented to anyone that they are
designed to serve as such a guarantee or assurance by PADI Worldwide. Having a quality assurance program provides no guarantees that the instructor you meet on the weekend will perform as expected.

3. In #18 he says, "PADI Worldwide has never claimed or represented to divers that PADI Worldwide has a comprehensive monitoring system

None of that language says they do not have a quality assurance program. They do have a quality assurance program, but the existence of the program does not guarantee that the instructor or program you encounter will meet its standards. They do check up on instructors through this quality assurance program, and instructors who do not meet standards are dealt with, but this does not constitute a comprehensive monitoring system. A comprehensive monitoring system would, as the original complaint seems to call for, require them monitor dive shop activities routinely to make sure they are always in compliance. They do not do that.

 

[Wookie]

So, here is a former English teacher's reading of this.

1. Nowhere does Hornsby say that PADI does not have a Quality Assurance program. Wookie is the only person saying that.

2. In #17, he says that PADI has never represented that their logos (etc.) serve as a guarantee or assurance by PADI Worldwide of any PADI member’s competence or adherence to PADI safety standards, and PADI Worldwide has never represented to anyone that they are
designed to serve as such a guarantee or assurance by PADI Worldwide. Having a quality assurance program provides no guarantees that the instructor you meet on the weekend will perform as expected.

3. In #18 he says, "PADI Worldwide has never claimed or represented to divers that PADI Worldwide has a comprehensive monitoring system

None of that language says they do not have a quality assurance program. They do have a quality assurance program, but the existence of the program does not guarantee that the instructor or program you encounter will meet its standards. They do check up on instructors through this quality assurance program, and instructors who do not meet standards are dealt with, but this does not constitute a comprehensive monitoring system. A comprehensive monitoring system would, as the original complaint seems to call for, require them monitor dive shop activities routinely to make sure they are always in compliance. They do not do that.

Good interpretation.

 

[boulderjohn]

Here is another way of thinking about it:

How can you both guarantee excellent instruction and publish an expelled instructor list at the same time? If you could guarantee great instruction, there would be no expelled instructors.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Here is another way of thinking about it:

How can you both guarantee excellent instruction and publish an expelled instructor list at the same time? If you could guarantee great instruction, there would be no expelled instructors.

Would you agree that raising the bar would help, but not guarantee, instruction?

 

[boulderjohn]

Would you agree that raising the bar would help, but not guarantee, instruction?

This post serves no useful purpose in this thread and is purely inflammatory.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

This post serves no useful purpose in this thread and is purely inflammatory.

Huh? I just made an inflammatory comment? Do i understand you correctly?