Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

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I am hoping @Subfiend can answer a question I asked repeatedly in the earlier threads without getting an answer.

Linnea signed up to take the AOW course, and that is what we are told was going on. AOW has 5 dives, each independent of the others. It is really like a collection of 5 separate courses rolled into one. Which of those 5 dives was she doing on the fatal dive?

The reason I ask is that in addition to the horrors of Snow's actions that day, I also look at what she did not do--instruct. Each of those 5 dives has requirements for what is to be done on the dive, and I do not see any attempt by Snow to teach or evaluate any specific skills for any specific AOW dive. I barely see her paying attention to someone who was supposedly her student. It made me wonder if she was actually doing an instructional dive or if instead she was doing an experience dive in preparation for later instructional dives.
 
I am hoping @Subfiend can answer a question I asked repeatedly in the earlier threads without getting an answer.

Linnea signed up to take the AOW course, and that is what we are told was going on. AOW has 5 dives, each independent of the others. It is really like a collection of 5 separate courses rolled into one. Which of those 5 dives was she doing on the fatal dive?

The reason I ask is that in addition to the horrors of Snow's actions that day, I also look at what she did not do--instruct. Each of those 5 dives has requirements for what is to be done on the dive, and I do not see any attempt by Snow to teach or evaluate any specific skills for any specific AOW dive. I barely see her paying attention to someone who was supposedly her student. It made me wonder if she was actually doing an instructional dive or if instead she was doing an experience dive in preparation for later instructional dives.
That struck me as odd too. Was there a drysuit theory lesson?
 
In the DT interview, I believe Bob Gentry indicated this was the AOW navigation dive for Linnea. It was to be a drysuit dive for him as he was taking a drysuit course. But yes, I agree, there seemed to be absolutely no instruction occurring and clearly no student oversight as well.
 
People are free to have different opinions about every aspect of this case. I have seen all the evidence, and I have mine, but that's just me.

The important thing to remember, and part of the reason we are having this discussion here, is this case should be a teachable moment for divers, instructors, certifying agencies and the dive industry as a whole. This was not the first time an incident like this has happened, and it will not be the last, but I sincerely hope we can extend the time between now and the next incident, and I hope this future incident does not involve anybody that has read these posts on SB or the information available elsewhere. If such an incident does involve a person who looked at the evidence and dismissed it, I hope it is not somebody you care about. I am regularly involved in investigating between one and two dozen diving fatalities every year. I hate it when I see the name of somebody I know, or a behavior anybody who is paying attention knows to avoid, but it happens over and over. If you see less of me around the dive industry, this will be the only reason why.
Subfiend,

If there no ombudsman or similar that this can be taken to. Or possibly start a private prosecution?
 
Subfiend,

If there no ombudsman or similar that this can be taken to. Or possibly start a private prosecution?

Are private prosecutions a "thing" in US Law? I've heard of these in the UK, but not the US.

I think the best a US private party can do is file a civil claim, as was done here. I can't send my neighbor to jail for, say, beating his children. The "state" has to do that.

There may be an ombudsmen, though. Maybe an Inspector General some where in Dept. of Justice?
 
Subfiend: Thanks for the clarification on "intent." That had me hung up: I can't see how you prove "intent" in this case. Criminal stupidity isn't a thing, for better or worse.

Manatee Diver: Regarding texting and driving, per your message below:
Prisons would be overflowing if that were the case.

As a friend once said "God only made one perfect man and I'm not him." Everyone makes mistakes and while you can and often should be held responsible civilly the bar for criminal negligence is very high. Did Snow exceed that bar? I don't know, that really isn't for me to decide is it?

In Washington State, USA, texting and driving are illegal. I'm not positive, but I think if you killed somebody while texting and driving you could be subject to vehicular homicide prosecution. (We have "vehicular assault" and "vehicular homicide" crimes that are often associated with injuries and deaths where the driver was intoxicated.)

Here's the relevant part of the RCW.

 
I am hoping @Subfiend can answer a question I asked repeatedly in the earlier threads without getting an answer.

Linnea signed up to take the AOW course, and that is what we are told was going on. AOW has 5 dives, each independent of the others. It is really like a collection of 5 separate courses rolled into one. Which of those 5 dives was she doing on the fatal dive?

The reason I ask is that in addition to the horrors of Snow's actions that day, I also look at what she did not do--instruct. Each of those 5 dives has requirements for what is to be done on the dive, and I do not see any attempt by Snow to teach or evaluate any specific skills for any specific AOW dive. I barely see her paying attention to someone who was supposedly her student. It made me wonder if she was actually doing an instructional dive or if instead she was doing an experience dive in preparation for later instructional dives.
Try to follow the bouncing ball. I assure you, it is not easy.

Linnea signed up for a PADI Advanced Open Water course. On October 25, 2020, Linnea went with a group of two other students, the instructor (Snow) and a dive shop employee to Seeley Lake, Montana. Snow combined at least two different training courses into one for the dives at Seeley Lake: Linnea’s Advanced Open Water course and a Dry Suit Diver Specialty course for Joel. It is not clear what the other student, Nathan, was training for, he simply said he was receiving "advanced level training." He was previously Open Water certified.

Seeley Lake sits at an altitude of 4,019 feet. The temperature at the beginning of the day was -5 degrees Fahrenheit, with a wind chill of -15 degrees Fahrenheit, and the ground was blanketed with snow and ice. The high temperature at Seeley Lake on that day was 18 degrees Fahrenheit. Because of the temperature, Nathan did not go in the water. Instead, he gave his wet suit to Linnea and she wore two wet suits. None of the student divers submerged below three feet, because their computers never activated. It appears that they simply swam on the surface.

On November 1, 2020, Snow again combined at least two different training courses into one for the dives at Lake McDonald: Linnea’s Advanced Open Water course and a Dry Suit Diver Specialty course for Joel, Bob and Emma. The Dry Suit Specialty students had previously undergone an evening of pool orientation in their dry suits. By this time, Nathan was employed by Gull Dive and he brought the other of two dry suits he and Linnea had purchased two days earlier. Nathan and the other dive shop employee, Seth, went diving together, sometimes away from Snow and the students, but they also believed they were present to assist with the class (and they were paid for their time). Seth's highest level of certification was Junior Open Water.

The divers were supposed to complete at least two training dives in Lake McDonald, three if time allowed. The last dive was to be a night dive. The earlier dives were not clearly defined and there were no pre-dive briefings or knowledge reviews. Instead, Nathan and Linnea sang karaoke on the way to Glacier NP in Debbie's truck. Seth had a flat tire on the way and turned around to go back to Missoula. The Gentry family was in its own vehicle.

Two dives were conducted at Lake McDonald: (1) a brief dive where Emma was dragged down to 20(ish) feet by Snow with Bob waiting on the surface, Linnea following them down to 20(ish) feet, and Seth and Nathan doing their own thing in deeper water; and (2) the second dive a few minutes after Emma exited the water where there was no clear plan. On Dive 2, Nathan and Seth were buddies, with Nathan in a dry suit and Seth in a wet suit, and Snow led Bob and Linnea into deeper water. When the video begins five minutes into the dive, Linnea can be seen standing on a ledge at 60 feet with Seth and Nathan very close by, Debbie is 15 feet above and swimming horizontally toward Bob, and Bob is stationary, about 25-30 feet away from the other divers. Debbie approaches Bob, shows him her compass, and swims away while looking at her compass. Meanwhile, Nathan and Seth ascend, leaving Linnea standing on the ledge. Shortly thereafter, Snow swims down toward Linnea, still fixated on her compass and she swims directly in front of Linnea, close enough to touch her, before continuing off to the right. This is when Linnea starts signaling frantically to Bob and, in the process, she loses her footing on the ledge and begins to fall backward into the abyss. (Lake McDonald is 472 feet deep at this spot, and this is essentially a wall dive.)

If you can discern what specific training dives were taking place at this time, I would love for you to share this knowledge with me. I can tell you that I have spoken to all of the divers except Snow, Seth and Linnea, and they all believed they were doing instructional dives, not experience dives. Snow and all of the surviving student divers told the NPS they were in a Dry Suit Specialty class. As for Linnea, she had completed the remote study portion of her AOW course and she brought her PADI AOW manual and incomplete medical and liability waiver in her backpack on the trip to Lake McDonald. Notes in the textbook indicate she still had questions for her instructor. Some of the test answers are incomplete.

In the weeks and months after Linnea’s fatal dive, PADI issued seven certifications to three of the divers involved in the training courses, based on the dives made at Seeley Lake on October 25, 2020 and Lake McDonald on November 1, 2020.

a. Seth was awarded PADI’s Deep Diver and Peak Performance Buoyancy specialty certifications, presumably based on the unsuccessful dive he made to 127 feet to assist in the recovery of Linnea’s body.

b. Nathan was awarded PADI’s Deep Diver and Advanced Open Water certifications, even though he did not participate in the search and recovery dives, and he never entered the water at Seeley Lake.

c. In January 2021, Joel was awarded PADI Dry Suit Specialty Diver and PADI Advanced Open Water certifications, even though none of his dives met PADI’s requirements to be considered training dives, he never descended more than three feet below the surface at Seeley Lake, and he did not make it to Glacier National Park to participate in the dives at Lake McDonald.

The Certifying Instructor on the seven PADI certifications issued based on the dives at Seeley Lake and Lake McDonald was Debra Snow.
 
In the weeks and months after Linnea’s fatal dive, PADI issued seven certifications to three of the divers involved in the training courses, based on the dives made at Seeley Lake on October 25, 2020 and Lake McDonald on November 1, 2020.

a. Seth was awarded PADI’s Deep Diver and Peak Performance Buoyancy specialty certifications, presumably based on the unsuccessful dive he made to 127 feet to assist in the recovery of Linnea’s body.

b. Nathan was awarded PADI’s Deep Diver and Advanced Open Water certifications, even though he did not participate in the search and recovery dives, and he never entered the water at Seeley Lake.

c. In January 2021, Joel was awarded PADI Dry Suit Specialty Diver and PADI Advanced Open Water certifications, even though none of his dives met PADI’s requirements to be considered training dives, he never descended more than three feet below the surface at Seeley Lake, and he did not make it to Glacier National Park to participate in the dives at Lake McDonald.

The Certifying Instructor on the seven PADI certifications issued based on the dives at Seeley Lake and Lake McDonald was Debra Snow.
Does anybody know if these certifications were later revoked by PADI?

This is just wrong.

For folks who don't know:

1. Deep diver certification requires 4 dives over two days. Going deep once doesn't qualify you as a deep diver. Each dive has to exceed 60', as I recall. (Most instructors would do at least one dive to 130', and others closer to 100'. Well, at least I would.)

2. PPB requires at least two dives, as I recall. (I almost never teach this, with the exception of having a previously certified OW diver who wants to go through the whole OW course again. With a little extra work, they can do PPB and get a new certification.)

3. AOW, of course, requires 5 dives.

4. To "count," any training dive for any of these must exceed 20'. (The "deep" dive for AOW and any of the dives for Deep Diver have to exceed 60'.)
 
If you can discern what specific training dives were taking place at this time, I would love for you to share this knowledge with me. I can tell you that I have spoken to all of the divers except Snow, Seth and Linnea, and they all believed they were doing instructional dives, not experience dives.
Well, as I said earlier, I have not seen anything resembling instruction in these dives. If Linnae was the only one doing AOW, she would be the only one who could tell you what AOW dive was being done. Post 1,793 suggests she was doing the navigation dive, but your description shows Snow doing the navigation. Perhaps she is demonstrating, but any such demonstration should have happened on the surface. The students are supposed to perform the skill under water.

The later certifications for the others defies belief.

I am sure you are aware that Snow foolishly participated in a FaceBook thread immediately after the incident in which she laid the blame on Bob, who was supposedly Linnae's buddy. This makes zero sense in regard to the video, since Snow obviously has to see how far separated they are and she has to be approving of it.

Of all the AOW dives, navigation is the most demanding of time and instructor engagement. If two people are doing it at the depths of this dive, I have run out of time (air supply) and had to do a second dive to complete the skills.
 
Does anybody know if these certifications were later revoked by PADI?

This is just wrong.

For folks who don't know:

1. Deep diver certification requires 4 dives over two days. Going deep once doesn't qualify you as a deep diver. Each dive has to exceed 60', as I recall. (Most instructors would do at least one dive to 130', and others closer to 100'. Well, at least I would.)

2. PPB requires at least two dives, as I recall. (I almost never teach this, with the exception of having a previously certified OW diver who wants to go through the whole OW course again. With a little extra work, they can do PPB and get a new certification.)

3. AOW, of course, requires 5 dives.

4. To "count," any training dive for any of these must exceed 20'. (The "deep" dive for AOW and any of the dives for Deep Diver have to exceed 60'.)
Joel's certifications were revoked by PADI, but IIRC only after he joined the case as a plaintiff. Bob and Emma never received certifications.

SDI/TDI offered to retrain all of Debbie Snow's students, with the expense of doing so covered by an anonymous donor. Frankly, I was surprised that PADI did not offer to retrain these students. They issued the certifications in the first place.
 

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