Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[tursiops]

I don't know where the line is. I do know that simply saying "Training agencies are greedy and that's why they set the standards the way they do" bugs me as intellectually lazy and highly reductive.

Strongly agree. It is typical of wanting the world to be black and white: either it is perfect or it is wrong. It ignores the rather large middle ground.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

I have taught in Rainbow Reef IDC's as a PADI Course Director on several occasions since 2015. That IDC is taught just exactly how it is supposed to be taught - right in-line with PADI standards.

It is incorrect to state that anything was left out of the Rainbow Reef IDC which would lead this instructor to make these type decisions.

 

[tursiops]

Wait- aren’t ALL divers taking AOW already CERTIFIED?

So why is there any issue leaving two certified divers in the water?

The PADI standards require direct supervision by the instructor during AOW for any dives deeper than 60ft, and direct supervision shallower than 60 ft for certain Adventure Dives.

 

[Outbound]

Do you have personal knowledge that either her DM training or her IDC was sub-par?

It takes no special knowledge to be a DM.


I was taught on my knees and I’m a pretty ****-hot diver.

My point is that making blanket statements like this is how cases are lost. I have no idea why Debbie Snow showed such poor judgement for that class. But it is unlikely in the extreme that it was something she learned in her DM class, or at Rainbow Reef in her IDC.

The point of the case, and this thread, is not that she showed poor judgement, it’s that she was allowed to show poor judgement by her boss (Gull Dive) and by the training agency that was supposed to oversee her. Their insurance company all paid the price for allowing her to teach under the conditions she was teaching in.

Notice that Rainbow Reef and her DM instructor were not named in any lawsuit.

A lot of us were taught on our knees, and a lot of us turned out to be good divers. But I would argue it's because a lot of us here take our diving seriously and worked hard to become better divers as we advanced and got more experience. But why have student divers start there and have to work through it later? Why not start them with something at least resembling proper trim and buoyancy? Same with weighting. Does teaching students on their knees actually make it easier for them? Every time I see students on their knees I see them flailing around to keep from tipping backwards, etc. At least have them floating horizontal while pivoting on their fin tips. That's a lot closer to how they should be diving than to have them vertical.

As for Snow, I make my judgement solely on the basis of the complete lack of common sense and knowledge she displayed on that fateful dive. Yeah, maybe I went overboard in my statement above. Sorry about that. But no self-respecting dive professional should have ever racked up the huge lists of errors she did. Even excepting all the major issues surrounding the drysuit, she zipped a massive amount of weight into the poor girl's bcd pockets. I suppose it's entirely possible that she had a huge number of brain farts on that single dive and that the rest of her dive career was exemplary. But how does a dive pro get all the way up to instructor thinking massively overweighting a student and zipping lead and rocks into a BCD pocket is okay? So, yeah, I don't want to malign Rainbow Reef. But hot damn, someone somewhere must have seen something that made them severely question whether she was fit for the profession.

 

[Wookie]

A lot of us were taught on our knees, and a lot of us turned out to be good divers. But I would argue it's because a lot of us here take our diving seriously and worked hard to become better divers as we advanced and got more experience. But why have student divers start there and have to work through it later? Why not start them with something at least resembling proper trim and buoyancy? Same with weighting. Does teaching students on their knees actually make it easier for them? Every time I see students on their knees I see them flailing around to keep from tipping backwards, etc. At least have them floating horizontal while pivoting on their fin tips. That's a lot closer to how they should be diving than to have them vertical.

As for Snow, I make my judgement solely on the basis of the complete lack of common sense and knowledge she displayed on that fateful dive. Yeah, maybe I went overboard in my statement above. Sorry about that. But no self-respecting dive professional should have ever racked up the huge lists of errors she did. Even excepting all the major issues surrounding the drysuit, she zipped a massive amount of weight into the poor girl's bcd pockets. I suppose it's entirely possible that she had a huge number of brain farts on that single dive and that the rest of her dive career was exemplary. But how does a dive pro get all the way up to instructor thinking massively overweighting a student and zipping lead and rocks into a BCD pocket is okay? So, yeah, I don't want to malign Rainbow Reef. But hot damn, someone somewhere must have seen something that made them severely question whether she was fit for the profession.

I won’t argue a single point, and I was never a Course Director, but I don’t know if mental fitness to dive (or be an instructor) is a requirement for completion of any course.

As an instructor, I am qualified to evaluate skills, but evaluate mental fitness to dive?

As a liveaboard operator I’d have failed half my clients.

 

[Edward3c]

@Angelo Farina you bring up some interesting points. I wasn't around (as a diver, at least) in the halcyon days of yore, so I can't comment on the training back then. I have heard stories of it, though, and a few things come to mind. First, the hardcore training of old definitely seemed to have some items/skills in it of dubious value. Second, the physical fitness and mental toughness required for some of the old training acted as a filter of sorts on who decided to pursue dive training in the first place. I'm guessing that students - and thus, ultimately, certified divers - were disproportionately young, fit men. Third, and very much related, is that most students and divers were people who were serious about diving.

Was that the best model? Perhaps in some ways. Perhaps not in others. We need to find a balance between making dive training accessible while also keeping it as safe as possible. To be clear, I'm certainly not arguing that we weaken standards and dumb down the teaching so that anyone can become a diver. In fact, I'm for strengthening standards. But somewhere along that spectrum is the proper balance point. I can't tell you where, exactly, it is though.

The way I see it, one of the major problems is with dive marketing and its downstream impacts on students and dive pros. Because in many ways the marketing is either driving the standards or is at least related to them. Despite what the training agencies - and, let's face it, it's predominantly a PADI thing - want people to believe, no, not everyone can or should become a diver. We don't necessarily need to filter out all but the most hardcore people. But we also need to be realistic about the fact that while rec diving is relatively safe, it comes with the potential for some extreme consequences. It irks me to no end when I see people sign up for OWD certification courses who have no business doing so. I'm talking about people with severe fear of the water, with major anxiety issues, people who cannot swim, etc. We've all seen and dealt with those students. Some of them work hard and actually earn their certification. Some of them drop out. A lot of them, however, manage to squeak by and get certified because the standards bar is set so low and because instructors are trained in such a way as to churn out certified divers.

I won't pretend I have the answers, and there are lots of folks on these boards who have been at it far, far longer than I have who have a ton more insight. But for starters, at the very least, I think training agencies need to get a much better handle on the quality control of their instructors. Snow, for example, should never, ever have been allowed to become an instructor. I'm surprised she even made it through her DM training.

We also need a Flexner Report of sorts when it comes to dive schools, and a lot of IDC mills need to tighten up their game or be shut down.

The prerequisites to become a dive pro need to be strengthened. Divers should have a LOT more experience before they are allowed to make the transition to pro. No more zero-to-hero crap.

Students should not be taught on their knees, ever. We need to stop overweighting students just to get them to the bottom/platform so they can do the skills, get out, and move on to the next dive. We need to stop allowing students to bicycle kick and hand scull their way through the water. All these things make for sloppy diving and lead students to believe that sloppy diving is fine. It's not. If we want to have a culture of serious divers, we need to cultivate that from the very start.

Not everyone is cut out for diving. Almost everyone can learn to dive. But we need to let students know - and demonstrate it through every step, action, and approach we take - that it will take work and dedication on their part.

BSAC (club based) include commercial agency extras within core qualification courses, but we are not in competition with the commercial agencies. We go diving, training is a byproduct of developing buddies.

For example [cost not inclusive of BSAC membership £75.50 per year]:

• Ocean Diver = basic equipment assembly and usage, drysuit, basic rescue of buddy (CBL & make safe at the surface), planning dives using rule of thirds. [£37.50]
• Advanced Ocean Diver = Nitrox to 36%, basic compass & navigation, SMB & DSMB deployment, progressive dives to 30m. [£37.00]
• Sports Diver = dives with mandatory deco stops, further rescue skills (CBL with rescue breaths and recovery to boat or shore, assistant dive manager. [£20.00]

These are all taught by non-commercial certified instructors. It’s normal for a student to have 3 or 4 different instructors. It gives us the opportunity to evaluate standards compliance, if one instructor’s students are constantly below par.

All members are covered by our Public Liability insurance (except N America).

Mods: If this it too far off topic, just delete.

 

[formernuke]

I did my IDC at RR, was not impressed. On knees the entire time. I actually got yelled at for demonstrating neutral.

I was going to do adaptive with them but withdrew because there instructor didn't even know basic dive safety and yet this clown was teaching potential instructors when he himself needs to go back to OW. They actually owe me 600 dollars.

So based on my personal experience I wouldn't be surprised if her training played a part in the lack of judgment but that we will never know.

 

[Outbound]

I won’t argue a single point, and I was never a Course Director, but I don’t know if mental fitness to dive (or be an instructor) is a requirement for completion of any course.

As an instructor, I am qualified to evaluate skills, but evaluate mental fitness to dive?

As a liveaboard operator I’d have failed half my clients.

Fair points. And my apologies if I came in a little too hot. It's just that everything about this case gets me absolutely fired up.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Snow's AI was performed neutrally buoyant and trimmed. Saw it myself. Can't speak for RR.

 

[Wookie]

Snow's AI was performed neutrally buoyant and trimmed. Saw it myself. Can't speak for RR.

Again, skills can be learned.

Mental fitness to instruct may be harder to evaluate.

A DM needs nothing more than skills.