Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[formernuke]

Federal?

I have several friends that or were Federal LEOs, the DAs they worked with required extremely high bars to bring cases.

CT state level

 

[formernuke]

Federal?

I have several friends that or were Federal LEOs, the DAs they worked with required extremely high bars to bring cases.

The feds cross every T and dot every i for sure.

 

[formernuke]

The timing of recent events is interesting.

Can you elaborate

 

[VikingDives]

@Subfiend On Facebook, you said that you/your firm would no longer defend PADI members. Could you expand on your reasoning? Are you saying that anyone conducting courses under the PADI umbrella is out of consideration, or are you saying that you would not represent persons who have a PADI affiliation?

I'll use myself as an example. I keep PADI affiliation solely for marketing, but I have not conducted a PADI course in several years. I now renew every other year, but I keep an active affiliation with PADI though I have not taught for them. Would you represent me? The preceding question is hypothetical, I am not asking for, or expecting that your answer would bind us in an attorney-client relationship. I am not asking for you to be my lawyer, or for representation, but merely presenting a set of facts to understand your thinking regarding what you had previously posted. (Hopefully, that's disclaimer enough...)

Thanks for your answers here. It has been interesting. FWIW, I make every professional I train read your complaint and we discuss it in class. I use it as an opener about doing the right thing for clients.

 

[Centrals]

So there is NO criminal charge against the instructor?
"Justice is a game".

 

[Subfiend]

@Subfiend On Facebook, you said that you/your firm would no longer defend PADI members. Could you expand on your reasoning? Are you saying that anyone conducting courses under the PADI umbrella is out of consideration, or are you saying that you would not represent persons who have a PADI affiliation?

I'll use myself as an example. I keep PADI affiliation solely for marketing, but I have not conducted a PADI course in several years. I now renew every other year, but I keep an active affiliation with PADI though I have not taught for them. Would you represent me? The preceding question is hypothetical, I am not asking for, or expecting that your answer would bind us in an attorney-client relationship. I am not asking for you to be my lawyer, or for representation, but merely presenting a set of facts to understand your thinking regarding what you had previously posted. (Hopefully, that's disclaimer enough...)

Thanks for your answers here. It has been interesting. FWIW, I make every professional I train read your complaint and we discuss it in class. I use it as an opener about doing the right thing for clients.

My partner Matt and I have decided not to represent or advise any PADI members for any reason.

As I said on FB, we have clients, not cases. We already stopped accepting new clients a while ago. The only exception, and this is rare, is a referral from a friend or an existing client that we like. Some of our existing clients are insurance companies, and they will assign us to defend scuba cases against instructors or dive shops/vessels with a variety of affiliations. We just went through a period where we were asked by the carriers to defend six or seven new cases in less than six weeks. The majority involved PADI members. I have been involved in 35 scuba fatality investigations in the past three years. Again, the majority involved PADI members. We are seeing a disturbing trend, and it's not based on marketshare. Then, there is the evidence we saw in the Mills case. Enough was enough.

Matt and I have a small firm. We have clients all over the world and cases all over the United States. We have plenty of work to do. When it comes to accepting new work, we decided to draw a hard line. As I said on FB, we did not want to be part of what we see as an underwater Jenga game.

I am glad you use the complaint as a learning tool. I wrote it with this in mind.

 

[Wookie]

My partner Matt and I have decided not to represent or advise any PADI members for any reason.

On Facebook, you said that you/your firm would no longer defend PADI members. Could you expand on your reasoning?

@VikingDives, the way I interpret this, PADI has been given multiple opportunities to change their standards and strengthen their QA program to be able to make a huge dent in the large settlements that PADIs owners and insurers have had to pay out in the past few years. They have chosen to stay their course, unless forced to by the terms of a lawsuit settlement. Fair enough, their agency, their rules.

Meanwhile, David has settled no small number of lawsuits while specifically attacking their standards. It would be a bit of a moral conflict, for me anyway, to represent an instructor, especially one like you, or me, who are able to teach RAID or SDI/TDI (or whoever) but chose PADI instead, for whatever or any reason.

I‘ve known David for a long time, been his client for less long, and on call on his legal team for less long than that. I’ve never been called to give testimony, but I could if it came to that. I’ve also been exposed to other lawyers who represent scuba clients. I’ve even been told by one of those lawyers that they represent me, when they really represented someone who could have potentially been my adversary had it come down to a lawsuit. I don’t have a good feel for most lawyers. Dave and Matt represented me in the sale of my liveaboard. Dave represented my good friend Richie Kohler in DeWolf. He represented my friend Lamar Hires in Skiles. I find him to be honest, but more than that, I find him to be a man of honor and integrity. If he says he won’t represent a PADI member, it’s likely because he finds the organization without either. And members should be able to figure that out on their own. It took me a long time. I have a 20 year award. There will be no 25 year award.

My words, not his.

 

[VikingDives]

@VikingDives, the way I interpret this, PADI has been given multiple opportunities to change their standards and strengthen their QA program to be able to make a huge dent in the large settlements that PADIs owners and insurers have had to pay out in the past few years. They have chosen to stay their course, unless forced to by the terms of a lawsuit settlement. Fair enough, their agency, their rules.

Meanwhile, David has settled no small number of lawsuits while specifically attacking their standards. It would be a bit of a moral conflict, for me anyway, to represent an instructor, especially one like you, or me, who are able to teach RAID or SDI/TDI (or whoever) but chose PADI instead, for whatever or any reason.

I‘ve known David for a long time, been his client for less long, and on call on his legal team for less long than that. I’ve never been called to give testimony, but I could if it came to that. I’ve also been exposed to other lawyers who represent scuba clients. I’ve even been told by one of those lawyers that they represent me, when they really represented someone who could have potentially been my adversary had it come down to a lawsuit. I don’t have a good feel for most lawyers. Dave and Matt represented me in the sale of my liveaboard. Dave represented my good friend Richie Kohler in DeWolf. He represented my friend Lamar Hires in Skiles. I find him to be honest, but more than that, I find him to be a man of honor and integrity. If he says he won’t represent a PADI member, it’s likely because he finds the organization without either. And members should be able to figure that out on their own. It took me a long time. I have a 20 year award. There will be no 25 year award.

My words, not his.

PADI lost me when I reported an instructor and shop and they did nothing... The instructor had been working for at least 15 months, somehow certifying students (shop manager, so probably using another instructor's cert #).

PADI was provided with names of witnesses (who were never contacted), names of students, a news station video, and a video from another PADI pro showing the instructor, while he was suspended (he was temporarily suspended because he renewed after he was notified of the QM complaint, while the complaint was under "investigation") conducting training in open water.

PADI's response to all this? Zero, Zip, Nada. They took no action against the instructor.

The only reason I pay my membership dues is so I can say we offer PADI courses on our website, because we get searches and the occasional call from people looking for "PADI certification."

What I was trying to ask @Subfiend was, is simply being a member, in his mind, grounds for not taking a case, i.e. someone like me who has a number but doesn't teach PADI courses, or is it that he won't represent someone teaching PADI classes?

 

[Manatee Diver]

It would be a bit of a moral conflict, for me anyway, to represent an instructor, especially one like you, or me, who are able to teach RAID or SDI/TDI (or whoever) but chose PADI instead, for whatever or any reason.

Depends on how you view the right to legal counsel. My father did a brief stint as a criminal defense attorney, one of his clients was clearly guilty of statutory rape (she was pregnant with his child) yet he still defended him because he deserved the best legal defense that he could get despite the fact that his client disgusted him.

Civil cases are a bit different as you don't have threat of death or imprisonment, but the mindset can be the same. Personally I respect both mindsets as long as there is enough choice of quality firms that can represent everyone.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

PADI lost me when I reported an instructor and shop and they did nothing... The instructor had been working for at least 15 months, somehow certifying students (shop manager, so probably using another instructor's cert #).

PADI was provided with names of witnesses (who were never contacted), names of students, a news station video, and a video from another PADI pro showing the instructor, while he was suspended (he was temporarily suspended because he renewed after he was notified of the QM complaint, while the complaint was under "investigation") conducting training in open water.

PADI's response to all this? Zero, Zip, Nada. They took no action against the instructor.

The only reason I pay my membership dues is so I can say we offer PADI courses on our website, because we get searches and the occasional call from people looking for "PADI certification."

What I was trying to ask @Subfiend was, is simply being a member, in his mind, grounds for not taking a case, i.e. someone like me who has a number but doesn't teach PADI courses, or is it that he won't represent someone teaching PADI classes?

May I make a suggestion? Instead of paying them to use their name on your website (basically what is going on), when someone calls asking about a course from them ask them why they want that brand. Inform them that you can offer a certification equal or, morel likely, better course through your other agency. Explain to them that the agency name on the card is not nearly as important as the education they get.
And I always told every student and potential student that the card the vast majority of resorts and operations will care about is VISA or MasterCard.
I read Dave's post, and have discussed with him personally because we communicate fairly often, as saying that if PADI is going to be one of the entities named in a suit against you, and it will be if you are in active status or actively affiliated with them, he is not going to take that on.
What is going to happen, if you get sued, is that the attorney for the plaintiff is going to look at every cert you offer and name every agency you teach through. That's just a fact. Even if you are teaching an SDI class, they are going to try and look at the "influence your other affiliations may have" on how you teach. I would.
You have to consider that. It's one of the reasons I dropped my SEI affiliation after teaching a few tech classes. Why? SEI doesn't offer tech classes and considered diving beyond recreational depths as a no no.
If a problem arose, I didn't want to answer how I could justify being affiliated with two entities that were opposed to each other's beliefs in what was safe.
That was a hard decision to make since I was one of the original 100 or so SEI Instructors and in the beginning of the agency, one of the most vocal and active.
But I had to look at the practicality of it.
I can also foresee a time when if you are a PADI Instructor, you'll be paying through the nose for insurance.
I believe a reckoning is coming in that area. I have been saying for years that all instructors should not be paying the same amount. Those of us with higher standards from the agency and tighter ratios should be paying less than those on the other end.
I just got a new car. 2021 Subaru Crosstrek after my beloved Rav4 was totaled by a stop sign running driver. I have a very good record. The Subaru has more safety features.
As a reward (my word) for this, my auto insurance dropped $500 a year.
As a SCUBA instructor with no reports, sanctions, or complaints and teaching to higher standards for an agency with higher ones and smaller ratios, the same thing should apply, right?
Nope. Because of instructors like Snow and others, and operations like Gull Dive and others, had I not retired my insurance would have been $200 more than last year.
And more carriers are dropping out and/or raising rates even higher.
And it's actions and inactions by certain entities in the dive industry that are just going to make it worse.
PADI came out with new standards for drysuit use. Standards that in no way protect the diver or instructor. But they do allow operations and the agency to weasel out of responsibility when shady, unethical, and immoral shops and operations force instructors to use the max ratios.
I wouldn't represent anyone with any affiliation to them.