Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[formernuke]

This really is going to be a interesting case, with the potential to change the landscape in diving training in the US.

All the training agencies are scared right now.

 

[cerich]

All the training agencies are scared right now.

if they are only scared they don't quite grasp it. They should be terrified and frankly they should already be in motion on a few things..

 

[formernuke]

Very true, so far they have been like a drivers ed. We teach you you get your license if you get in a accident it's on you.

A few flaws in there plan

 

[PirateFoxy]

if they are only scared they don't quite grasp it. They should be terrified and frankly they should already be in motion on a few things..

Dive Talk the other day in passing suggested there are rumors about self-certification going away, at least for some specialties. Didn’t sound like the intention was to wait until the case is over to make those changes, but they didn’t get into it in much detail. It was mostly in the context of saying they suspect there will be big changes in the industry because of the case. (Sounded like Woody has heard more rumors than just that but didn’t want to get into speculation/gossip.)

 

[Ayisha]

Honestly, the agency argument is the big one here. Let's cede unless further evidence that Snow violated a bunch of standards, duty of care etc.

Best guess might be that it was an u/w navation dive since Snow showed a compass to Bob and was apparently fixated on her compass, unaware of the victim reaching out for help. Snow was apparently seen on video even kicking the victim while finning away while using her compass.

 

[yle]

If you go to the very beginning of the discussion, for example, you will see me asking questions about missing evidence. For just one example, we keep talking about the instructor/student relationship between the principle characters, but we are never shown any evidence that such a relationship existed on that dive. We are not told what class she was taking on that dive.

Naw.

Gotta diasgree with you here. The only relationship the victim had with the instructor was that of a student-instructor. It's not like they were occasional dive buddies, not like there was some ambiguity for anyone over whether this was a "come along as a buddy" dive or as a dive that was part of the victim's class, under the direction of the instructor.

The victim had already completed one dive, in a wetsuit, several days prior to the incident as the first dive for her AOW class. Which means she was in the middle of her class.

The instructor suggested the victim join her for the fateful dive. The only reason the victim went was because the instructor directed her to. Everything the victim did that day was at the direction of the instructor. The instructor told her exactly what equipment to bring, including the drysuit which the instructor arranged for her to buy just for the dive that day, and the rental gear from the shop that she was to use for her AOW course. The instructor even drove the victim to the dive site. And the victim was in the middle of her AOW class with that instructor.

The fact that the instructor didn't explain how the dive would fit into the class is a very minor detail, especially in light of the fact that the instructor (according to the civil suit) didn't seem to explain much of anything to any of the students, or have much of a plan for the dive.

What kind of evidence would you need to see to establish that the only relationship they had on the day of the incident was that of an instructor & student?

I'm not going to claim I'm an average or normal instructor, but I have never had an AOW student that I have taken out diving, just as dive buddies, in between dives that I've scheduled for their AOW course dives. If this is a normal thing, I'd like to hear about it from other instructors. And I'm not talking about higher level classes... I'm talking specifically about AOW classes with relatively inexperienced students (like the victim.)

 

[yle]

It doesn't matter which dive it was if you are taking a photography class and show up with unsafe equipment the instructor has a obligation to say no we are not doing this.

Now if it is shown that she was not in a class that's different but the complaint clearly states she was in a class.

Yep, exactly. I'm scratching my head over John's claim there is no evidence they had an instructor-student relationship on the day of the incident.

--The victim paid for an AOW class at the shop. The shop told victim "this is your instructor." The shop told student "here is the rental gear you will use for your class."

--The victim, at the instructor's direction, completed one dive for the class in a wetsuit.

--The victim, at the direction of the instructor, and with the instructor's help, purchased a drysuit.

--The instructor told the victim when the next dive would be, the instructor told the victim to bring the gear that she was given for the class (and the drysuit she bought.)

--The instructor drove the victim to the dive site and directed the victim to put on gear and enter the water.

BUT... because the instructor didn't specify which of the five AOW dives this would qualify as, she wasn't really an instructor that day and the victim wasn't in a class? Even though the only relationship they had was instructor-student, and the instructor had directed every aspect of the events of the day, and the instructor knew the student was not qualified to do the night dive by herself, but instructed her to get in the water anyway?

Okay, got it. As an instructor, I was not aware that this was a thing. But regardless, I'd never treat my students this way.

 

[cerich]

Dive Talk the other day in passing suggested there are rumors about self-certification going away, at least for some specialties. Didn’t sound like the intention was to wait until the case is over to make those changes, but they didn’t get into it in much detail. It was mostly in the context of saying they suspect there will be big changes in the industry because of the case. (Sounded like Woody has heard more rumors than just that but didn’t want to get into speculation/gossip.)

Hmm, Woody is heavy with SSI and that is an agency I am not. I will ping him today. I did talk with Gus and he expressed it was more speculative musing in nature

From an industry POV, other than nitrox, RSTC does not involve itself in specialty (nor tech) courses. So, would be a sea change if at that level, which would surprise me having been on the RSTC board. Mostly because it takes a unanimous vote to change anything.

 

[Wookie]

In legal terms, you are assuming facts not in evidence. I am curious as to why those facts are not in evidence.

There are no facts in evidence yet. You are throwing a red herring. Not one hearing has been held, not one fact has been presented.

You know this. You are disingenuous. You have evidence that an advanced class was taking place, you have evidence that Linnea was part of that class.

Do we know it was a deep dive, or a drysuit dive, or an altitude dive, or a fish ID dive? No, it makes sense that it is one of those dives, but maybe it wasn’t for Linnea. Maybe she was a Snow groupie and wanted to hang out and dive.

I expect you will hear more as the case evolves. I expect you to hear lots of things, but I don’t expect it will change your mind.

 

[sbijou]

The sad thing is a young girl's death prompted all these discussions of changes in the industry standards. Why did someone have to die in the first place?

Steve