Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Show me in the complaint where it says they were doing an AOW class dive on that dive.

They were there for an AOW course. Only the most pedantic would insist on your request.

I think you would take exception with the coroner not having taken the man's pulse.
An attorney, cross-examining the local coroner, queried, "Before you signed the death certificate had you taken the man's pulse?"

"No," the coroner replied.

"Well, then, did you listen for a heart beat?"

The coroner answered, "No."

"Did you check for respiration? Breathing?", asked the attorney.

Again the coroner replied, "No."

"Ah," the attorney said, "So when you signed the death certificate you had not taken any steps to make sure the man was dead, had you?"

The coroner rolled his eyes, and shot back "Counselor, at the time I signed the death certificate the man's brain was sitting in a jar on my desk. But I can see your point. For all I know he could be out there practicing law somewhere."

 

[boulderjohn]

Now if it is shown that she was not in a class that's different but the complaint clearly states she was in a class.

Where does it say she was in a class on that dive. Pray be specific.

 

[formernuke]

First page. Did you actually read the complaint

 

[cerich]

Where does it say she was in a class on that dive. Pray be specific.

The is no reasonable reason to assert she wasn't on a course given that the instructor clearly stated she was a student, that the filing, her parents, media and witnesses;s all state she was on her AOW. Because it hasn't been stated what type of AOW dive you seem intent on spinning that to affirm there is no evidence she was on a course and an instructor-student relationship existed. What's your agenda here?

 

[boulderjohn]

First page. Did you actually read the complaint

Yes I did. It says she was taking the AOW course.

I am an instructor who sometimes has students enrolled in courses do dives that are not part of the course because I feel they need the experience before continuing. If, for example, I had a student enrolled in an AOW course and determined that the student should wear a drysuit during the course, I might be inclined to have the student take several experience dives to get used to the drysuit before we did any course dives. It is possible that she as taking the course but was not engaged in a course dive during the incident.

Once again, I am not saying that this specific dive was not part of the instruction. I am saying that I cannot find a place where a specific course dive is identified, and I cannot believe the attorney would have left that out because the failure to engage the student on the standards of that specific part of the course would have been downright damning.

It is just that I have seen how attorneys can word something very carefully to make you believe it says something that it doesn't.

This incident is horrible, and the instructor's actions are inexcusable no matter what the final details turn out to be. As horrible as it was, I am still incredulous about the fact that she did not make the slightest effort to any instruction whatsoever during the dive, the detailed chronology of events does not include knowledge reviews, there is no mention of a dive briefing related to class standards, and there is no list of the standards for the dive, etc. All of that should, IMO, be the centerpiece of the complaint. Why is it missing?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

What's your agenda here?

Isn't that obvious?

All of that should, IMO, be the centerpiece of the complaint.

Maybe you could offer Concannon legal advice.

Maybe, just maybe some/all/none of what you request will be provided in court. I'm not a lawyer, and I have no business of telling lawyers with years of experience in diving related lawsuits on what they should or should not include in their legal filings.

 

[formernuke]

I might be inclined to have the student take several experience dives to get used to the drysuit before we did any course dives.

And during those experience dives that is your student and you have the same responsibility as if it was the AOW checkout dive.

Your splitting hairs, it's not there because it is irrelevant. The only way the responsibility isn't there would be if snow was just a buddy.

 

[boulderjohn]

Isn't that obvious?

Maybe you could offer Concannon legal advice.

Maybe, just maybe some/all/none of what you request will be provided in court. I'm not a lawyer, and I have no business of telling lawyers with years of experience in diving related lawsuits on what they should or should not include in their legal filings.

I am not giving him advice. In fact, I am saying that he knows what he is doing. I am just trying to understand it.

Perhaps you should read what I posted about being on a jury with possibly the most famous defense attorney in the state trying to make the jury believe something was true even though he did not have a shred of evidence for it. That guy knew what he was doing, too.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I am not giving him advice. In fact, I am saying that he knows what he is doing. I am just trying to understand it.

Perhaps you should read what I posted about being on a jury with possibly the most famous defense attorney in the state trying to make the jury believe something was true even though he did not have a shred of evidence for it. That guy knew what he was doing, too.

John,

Your logic is flawed, as it leads to absurdity. Lawyer A did something. Lawyer B (in this case Concannon) might be doing that same thing.

Ted Bundy was a serial murderer/rapist. He was a white male. You are a white male. You might be a serial murder/rapist (darnit, I'm white male too. I might be a serial murderer/rapist too!).

 

[cerich]

Honestly, the agency argument is the big one here. Let's cede unless further evidence that Snow violated a bunch of standards, duty of care etc.

Things like how with PADI a instructor candidate after signed off by the course director pays PADI directly for the IE which is conducted by a person employed in some manner by PADI . That is not standard practice in the industry.

If Snow was a NAUI instructor, with a vote and real membership vs a gym type of most agencies..well agency. NAUI should be watching this carefully. Heck, NAUI reserves standards changes to the elected board of members vs letting NSG do.

This really is going to be a interesting case, with the potential to change the landscape in diving training in the US.